The car's on fire and there's no driver at the wheel - The Tory leadership elections

please no more Bojo/Bozza/Bonzo now I mean did the clown cunt get his hair did for nothing?

Pom - Brexit originated in that Python joke btw.

Ultimately he's just a soft priapic nobleman who'll be really easy to destroy. Hunt or Raab would be functionally worse. I fully buy into the notion that no matter the pain, Johnson will take down the Tories - his lack of principle or toughness will ensure this. He only really wants money, sex and to be liked - even if he's happy to spill blood to achieve this. They are three fairly substantial weak points

Sounds familiar

Can't believe the Tories have walked right into Labour's trap.

― FernandoHierro, Thursday, 13 June 2019 12:36 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is quite obv a haughey smoker btw, bow down

there are deep long-term causes (which i think need to be faced and thought about) and effects arising from same: we can huffy as you like about the best way to respond to the "political stage" as it's probably about to present itself, and whatever additional evils it brings, but the long-term stuff is (a) what gave us brexit and may and bojo (and a bunch of bad stuff before all these), and (b) will carry on giving us bad (and in fact much worse) stuff if we don't tackle it. by comparison with all this, BJ is a symptom, yes (so was may) -- but of course i have a notoriously low and TomD-clowned opinion of BJ's effectiveness and ability to pull off much more than very trivial stunts.

i don't believe this long-term stuff can entirely be tackled within the political system as it currently exists (not least because as is it is in an advanced state of decay). i don't know what the corollary of this belief is, it's probably bad.

(tim is a big goth, that's where i'd start in on that one)

"call it the dennis wise proposition"

ffs more complicated + intellectual political science bs :p

Sounds familiar

― FernandoHierro, Thursday, 13 June 2019 15:37 (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is this a tu quoque ffs

Nah just meant Trump! Jesus I wouldn't kill you like that.

None of these things were said by you but I don't think it's exaggerating to say they're fairly handwavey.

They were said by me, in response to LBI first and then to some of what Daniel was saying, to summarise that I don't feel Johnson will be a huge shift from May, that anything he does is a continuation from her work - and I very much stand by this.

I asked for some more concrete matter on how Johnson will make non-UK citizens feel more unwelcome, or for the hostility to increase and only Matt's Bannon comment seemed to go anywhere but gyac rightly pointed out we are already quite in alliances with the far right under May.

'Tu quoque' slated to replace 'whataboutism' as preferred means of indicating rhetorical hypocrisy under the new Latinate order.

nota bene: it's 'whataboutery' and it's a subtly different fallacy

You are already in alliances with the far right under May, but not with the US president's men, as you will be shortly under Johnson.

that said, crying whataboutery in bad faith is a far more pernicious fallacy on the internets these days than whataboutery itself

Also, good FH - I suppose we're about to find out if Trump could happen here! (It couldn't)

Addendum: they're the same according to Vicipædia (libera encyclopædia).

fwiw xyzzzz I don't think Johnson will make non-UK citizens feel more unwelcome - I just think he'll make those wishing to bash non-UK citizen's heads feel more welcome in society at large

I would say comments like his can have an effect on people. It is hard to quantify, I agree. Harder than policy, but I dunno, do you disagree that eg Trump's rhetoric is damaging? I am willing to accept that it emboldens people and brings racist arguments and defences for the same into mainstream discourse.

It isn't as measurable as policy but seems palpable. Equally I guess I can imagine people targeted by such rhetoric feeling more unwelcome, maybe that would depend on their being already more established or wealthy in this country than under the heel of Tory policy but still.

Surely many Muslim women would be scared and perturbed by someone who said the stuff Boris said becoming PM?

I just can't see it as insignificant, I suspect you don't hugely disagree, it's just a different emphasis. At no point was I defending May tho.

xpost to xyzzzz

I'd have tu quoque as a specific form of whataboutery, where the whatabout is aimed directly at one's antagonist rather than a tangential factor

also I'll stop this now sorry haha

eheu eheu more like

You are already in alliances with the far right under May

you mean since that cuddly liberal moderniser DCam's first act as leader was to transfer the Tories' EU parliament allegiance from the mainstream right and set up the anti-EU loon faction?

I'm sure that improved our standing with the EU in later negotiations regarding our toy-throwing

I like "whataboutery" more than "whataboutism", but the Americans have decided the latter is the one, and they usually win iirc

Oh that's fair, imago, I was referring to whataboutism/whataboutery.

No it’s whataboutery, we must stand firm

Will accept whatabouterie

I'll take my filthy North American lingo elsewhere.

Although 'ism' is so much more savant than 'ery'.

Johnson seems more suggestible and floatatious (yes like a turd quite) whereas May was more rooted to the spot in her stupid beliefs. Potentially this means Johnson is more prone to dipping into further right ideology when sufficiently nudged. I guess I feel like he is more likely than May to propose burqa bans and other ideological principles as law, to test the Overton water more because he is somehow more unflushable. Maybe May wanted such things deep down too but didn't get time to pursue it. Johnson potentially has 3 years to, unless hard Brexit really does push anything else but its fallout off the table for the duration of Johnson's tenure. Also yes people can act more on soundbites and the link between 'lol letterbox' and veils being pulled off or Muslim women being Warnocked on the street might be more palpable and wider reaching than the more emotional violence of May's racist van. But I could be rong.

At no point did anyone defend May, what a load of fucking bullshit. This thread is so factional as to be absurd.

At no point did I say this either, and no one on this thread did.

To say that Johnson will be no worse than May is not the same as me saying that people saying so are defending May.

xp

fwiw xyzzzz I don't think Johnson will make non-UK citizens feel more unwelcome - I just think he'll make those wishing to bash non-UK citizen's heads feel more welcome in society at large

― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 13 June 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But I think this points to what UK politicians have often done in various ways from "Rivers of Blood" speech onwards, to Ed Milliband's immigration mugs and the like. I agree Johnson will be more brazen about it, he will hold the highest office in the country too, but its very much part of a trend. When I said it was mostly going to be racist comments you seemed to suggest that he will do more to enable racist violence?

It is indeed hard to quantify. Fwiw I think most people would agree that Trump has made the US even less livable for PoCs and foreigners in general.

Enoch and Miliband have set a dangerous precedent alright.

I asked for some more concrete matter on how Johnson will make non-UK citizens feel more unwelcome

Depending on how threatened he feels by Farage and reacts accordingly, actual far-right people are likely to rally round under Johnson in a way they didn't really under May. Even though there aren't that many of them, at ground level, that's still highly dangerous for a lot of people.

lol xp

but Miliband's campaign did pander to racists somewhat tbf.

When I said it was mostly going to be racist comments

You said "colourful comments" actually.

the other side of the mug said 'ffs there aready are...' but noone bothered to look

but Miliband's campaign did pander to racists somewhat tbf.

― calzino, Thursday, 13 June 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It totally did! *sees racism play out in British politics for my entire life* but Johnson now...now we are fucked.

You said "colourful comments" actually.

― FernandoHierro, Thursday, 13 June 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its how they are often painted as by others. With the 'precedent' comment it appears you have only started to pay attention recently?

How about 'even more fucked'? It's all about the comparatives.

I just found comparing Miliband to Enoch Powell fairly amusing and wanted to share that. I'll leave that there like a giant stone slab.

And I guess time will tell on Boris, I can't have total conviction on it but it seems the potential for things to get worse is there.

It's all about the deep causes. The Miliband mug was party numpties thinking you can move a ways down the slope and just stop and hold things there, pandering. We are a long way down the slope.

I assume comrade alphabet is fond of these lines from Hölderlin's 'Patmos':

Wo aber Gefahr ist, wächst
Das Rettende auch

'Where there is danger, grows also that which saves' would be a shitty, literal way of translating it.

Then again, Hölderlin was Hegel's classmate.

The Hölderlin in the translation I own:

'Where there is Danger some
Salvation grows there too'

höld my bier

Lol!

lol

I thought we'd learned at this point that although Ed might be a nice fellow his campaign was a racism/austerity enabling cowardly pile of shit. Or as Soubz would have it: holding the tories to account, lol

Depending on how threatened he feels by Farage and reacts accordingly, actual far-right people are likely to rally round under Johnson in a way they didn't really under May. Even though there aren't that many of them, at ground level, that's still highly dangerous for a lot of people.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 13 June 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ok that's fair. I didn't quite see it because of the numbers but it can't be discounted.

If we are going to draw parallels with Trump then there are a lot of words but also directly cruel policy like the Travel Ban. A lot of the time its about words being fired back and through the likes of Omar in congress this is also happening. And its the only way to roll this back, we can't just hope that the person in the PM's chair is not going to shoot their mouth off.

xps löl

With the 'precedent' comment it appears you have only started to pay attention recently?

Or as Soubz would have it: holding the tories to account, lol

The other thing was that May managed to sound broadly professional and committed and made lots of noises about fairness and being nice while doing the exact opposite to a lot of marginalised people.

Johnson's actual policies might turn out to be less damaging to some groups of people than May's (his wider policies are likely to be a disaster) but his rhetoric will be much worse, and rhetoric can be hugely damaging.