Elizabeth Warren - Foreign Policy and Medicare For All

it's trying to pull out the fact that her health care plan isn't as robust as bernie's and her approach to foreign policy is still captured by old paradigms.

arguably not as robust. she'd preserve the private insurance system but SEVERELY cap premiums (no more than 8.5% of income)

i am split between warren and bernie. i think she would be a better president than him, but i think a bernie election would mean something else--a defiant rejection of neoliberalism.

i don't really get the phrasing of this though. i thought the deal was that warren *didn't* support medicare for all--she has her own plan.

The GOP would stonewall either like Trotsky was president

but prob the same w/ any other Dem

xp

i don't really get the phrasing of this though. i thought the deal was that warren *didn't* support medicare for all--she has her own plan.

― Trϵϵship,

Have to be super careful with phrasing, to avoid misunderstanding, but your reading is correct. "I have a plan for M4A, it is to not do it but do this other plan instead", should have just put Healthcare in title instead (if a mod wants to change?)

Meanwhile this got published: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-2020-policies-platform.html

The wording of this poll is extremely confusing, but I believe the correct option for me is that my support for Warren doesn't rest on those two specific areas. I'm not sure why those would be seen as the two primary issues when there's plenty of other critical stuff that needs to be addressed.

I don't see how anyone can support Sanders over Warren anymore.

Healthcare and war are extremely significant issues

With climate change those are my most important things. I don’t have the best grasp on her foreign policy but maybe this times article will help

Also eating the rich is important to me. Here sanders has an advantage

Warren has a plan for that!

I like how Sanders specifically centers the concerns of Wal Mart employees and other low wage workers. It’s what i always wanted to see from a politician and never did but they all love meritocracy and entrepreneurship

Warren is younger, smarter, funnier, more charismatic, and can explain her positions in town halls. I'm not worried about foreign policy positions yet because she correctly senses her audience isn't thinking about it in June 2019.

Sorry on the bad wording Moodles, but at least you find a suitable answer!

As Warren is the most popular option on ILX I wanted to capture Warren supporters positions on the above two areas. I believe I've been fair with my options and included options for "actually this isn't so important". If I haven't been fair in my options, I've included an option for that too

It still matters though. If she wanted a war with China* I wouldn’t vote for her.

*i recognize she does not actually want this

xp

I don't see how anyone can support Sanders over Warren anymore.

at last the sanders vs. warren thread no one wanted or needed

As a foreigner, may I just implore Americans not to decide based on foreign policy unless you in fact do have a firm grasp on foreign policy.

😕

bernie absolutely destroyed

“Who do you think living today is worthy of picking up Thor’s hammer?”

In unison: “ELIZABETH WARREN!” pic.twitter.com/38QL92fy7v

— Ryan Knight 🏳️‍🌈 (@ProudResister) June 5, 2019

thanks for the periodic reminder that i cannot relate at all to politics threads these days

i don't support a candidate because there's no point in my supporting a candidate, the primary isn't for like a fucking year and my vote probably won't goddamn count then either

if i was supporting a candidate it wouldn't be on the basis of policy, because the decisive portion of the electorate has no fucking clue about policy and therefore it benefits none of the candidates to be honest about what they believe anyway

i will vote in the primary and then i will vote for whoever gets the democratic nomination and then we will talk about the deep problems with american democratic governance and how successfully implementing long-term policies is pretty much impossible, and i will push them to address that problem, and _then_ we can talk about policies as anything other than a propaganda tactic

That military greenwashing proposal should give you some hints.
― Simon H., Tuesday,

By the time Sanders gets to 80 I wouldn't trust him to sign his name

bingo

As a foreigner, may I just implore Americans not to decide based on foreign policy unless you in fact do have a firm grasp on foreign policy.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:18 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As an American, can I implore you to stop posting in these threads while condescending like this

the lighting and makeup in that clip make all three look like new and improved models of Max Headroom

xxxp - if there's no point in you supporting a candidate, how are you deciding who to vote for in the primary?

By the time Sanders gets to 80 I wouldn't trust him to sign his name

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

As soon as they have completed the term of eighty years, they are looked on as dead in law; their heirs immediately succeed to their estates; only a small pittance is reserved for their support; and the poor ones are maintained at the public charge. After that period, they are held incapable of any employment of trust or profit; they cannot purchase lands, or take leases; neither are they allowed to be witnesses in any cause, either civil or criminal or economic, not even for the decision of meers (metes) and bounds. Otherwise, as avarice is the necessary consequence of old age, those immortals would in time become proprietors of the whole nation, and engross the civil power, which, for want of abilities to manage, must end in the ruin of the public.

xxxp - if there's no point in you supporting a candidate, how are you deciding who to vote for in the primary?

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z)

i'll make a decision at the time! jesus christ, i didn't plan my wedding as far in advance as people are planning who to vote for

no you have to decide now and that choice will determine your entire personality

I'm, however, delighted we started yet another primary thread.

based on what, though? If policy doesn't matter, what new information is going to come out close to the wire to make you decide? Aside from Mayor Pete they're all old as shit, I don't think any of them are going to change as people in the next eight months.

i was thinking about starting a few politics threads myself. maybe a few polls. "who is better democrats or republicans?"

lol brad

and lol crut. i like democrats better but i think it's just because blue's my favorite color.

I don't see how a socialist can support Warren over Sanders

I better watch out for henchmen with ice picks!

based on what, though? If policy doesn't matter, what new information is going to come out close to the wire to make you decide? Aside from Mayor Pete they're all old as shit, I don't think any of them are going to change as people in the next eight months.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z)

they could drop out. they could die at the polls in iowa and new hampshire. they could have a personal scandal hit. lots of shit does, anybody who follows politics should know, come out close to the wire in primaries.

that aside, that's not what i'm waiting on. what i'm waiting on is the further evolution of the completely unstable domestic and global geopolitical and economic situation. we are in crisis and if i can judge next year how the various candidates have reacted to that ongoing crisis, that's more valuable to me as a voter than watching them navigate it in real time like it's some fucking soap opera or something.

What is Elizabeth Warren's plan on foreign policy?

Nobody should have 'a plan on foreign policy'.

You either have fifty different plans for different regions, or you delegate responsibility. That Obama/Sanders idea of creating new 'paradigms' or 'doctrines' which ends up unworkable is... bad.

Intriguing

Obama's was "against stupid wars." He then continued all the old ones and added a few.

Obama didn’t really have a cohesive approach. The motto was “don’t do stupid shit” and in effect he just allowed the pentagon to expand the sphere of global conflict through drones and other “tactical” engagements with little obvious long term benefit.

Could have used a more definite vision for sure in my opinion.

Nobody should have 'a plan on foreign policy'.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, June 11, 2019 2:24 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The whole question in the poll is if we like her foreign policy plan. There must be one. I just want to know what it is, not some arcane question of whether or not there should be one. I think I'm starting to understand what people say about you.

Presidents shouldn't have cohesive approaches; otherwise you get twaddle like THE REAGAN DOCTRINE or THE BUSH DOCTRINE written by zealous aides who want to pillage other countries, leave the administration, and get six-figure sinecures at think tanks.

The whole question in the poll is if we like her foreign policy plan. There must be one. I just want to know what it is, not some arcane question of whether or not there should be one. I think I'm starting to understand what people say about you.

― ☮ (peace, man), 11. juni 2019 16:31 (eighteen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, I guess the right answer is that the poll is disingenuous ;)

i thought i supported warren but then i read this poll and now i listen to chapotraphouse and read jacobin only bernie can liberate us from our chains

Sanders' value is as a catalyst

it likely won't work, but he's all we got

I bet Fred is really bad at writing protest signs/slogans

Aside from Mayor Pete they're all old as shit

TIL Andrew Yang (44), Julian Castro (44), Kamala Harris (54), Cory Booker (49), Tulsi Gabbard (37), Amy Klobuchar (58), Beto O'Roark (46), Kirsten Gillibrand (52), Wayne Messam (44), Tim Ryan (45), Eric Swalwell (38), Seth Moulton (40), Michael Bennett (54), Steve Bullock (53), and Bill Di Blasio (58) are all "old as shit"

The only protest slogan I've ever made up was during the anti-Iraq war protests, where we chanted 'Alaska, Iraq, Norway will be next!'

🤔

Obama's problem (while HRC was at State and Samantha Power was on the NSC) is that he was unduly influenced by those who saw every civil conflict as America's responsibility. The "don't do stupid shit" mantra wasn't really embraced until they left in February 2013.

Then along came Syria and Yemen!

Syria was while he was still unduly influenced, so I guess that's why there was so much intervention.

i don't support a candidate because there's no point in my supporting a candidate

This only makes sense if your support both starts and stops with casting your vote. In 2016 Bernie proved that aggregating hundreds of thousands of small contributors is a viable approach to campaign funding. And national campaigns need funds or they die. I've already kicked in small amounts of money for Warren twice. I figure Bernie has plenty of contributors to keep his campaign going without me.

I want both of those candidates viewed as serious contenders and able to hire staff who can do advance work for them in the early primary states. That's an important element of "support" and it's better if it isn't left entirely to 1% type contributors to finance presidential campaigns.

do people actually think trump would refuse to concede the results of the election? he seems too chicken to try that.

― Trϵϵship

oh thank fuck we get to have more kremlinology, yes let's all spend the next 18 months trying to guess what president hebephrene will be "thinking" if something that may or may not happen happens. good luck with your book brigadier pudding.

TIL Andrew Yang (44), Julian Castro (44), Kamala Harris (54), Cory Booker (49), Tulsi Gabbard (37), Amy Klobuchar (58), Beto O'Roark (46), Kirsten Gillibrand (52), Wayne Messam (44), Tim Ryan (45), Eric Swalwell (38), Seth Moulton (40), Michael Bennett (54), Steve Bullock (53), and Bill Di Blasio (58) are all "old as shit"

― Arugula Raccoon (DJP)

i'm 43 and i'm old as shit, checks out

I won’t do that don’t worry. I’m going to get some vegetarian tacos.

idgi though isn't speculating about what may or may not happen 18 mos from now just kind of what these trheads are about

All I know is I got a new display name

Is it “thirty, flirty and ready to die”? That’s what came into my head when people were talking about how the middle aged candidates were old as hell

jesus fuck how many primary threads do we need for the same exact group of people to stay on top of each other's arguments? someone lock this one please

― Good morning, how are you, I'm (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:36 AM (two hours ago)

thanks

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:41 AM (two hours ago)

As a private citizen I agree completely; as a representative of The State I could crack down on free speech rights and totally delete this sucker; disgustingly enough I decided to let the marketplace of ideas crush or elevate the thread as it will.

High intensity ideas are winning out as the dial of ideas is turned up to 11

Seeing where Paul Hellyer's headspace has gone in his 80s and 90s has made me a little more concerned about electing very old candidates to positions of power.

As a notoriously old person, I can vouch for the idea that old people are convinced they remember how it was when they were younger and they stand solidly upon experience, putting them far ahead of callow younger people with fewer years to draw upon, when in fact all they have is an old brain full of synapses that are starting to weaken or fail, and their distant memories and experiences are often figments of that weakening brain. I try as best I can to stay in the present and trust my recent experience far more than my hazy memories of decades past.

Addendum: From my observations, both Warren and Sanders are still fully engaged with the present and are not maudlin captives of an imaginary past.

imo the best argument for sanders > warren is that sanders is the one plausible candidate in my lifetime who seems like he could conceivably break with the post cold war interventionist mindset and challenge the national security state. not that he'd necessarily win that fight, but none of the other candidates is even going to try.

as much as i like warren, i think she would basically be obama II on foreign policy. opposed to "dumb wars" but not to the whole shebang. doubt she'd stop the drone war, for example.

Bernie has a more traditionally socialist/internationalist view of foreign policy, while Warren is very focused on domestic policy and is not a foreign policy adventurist in either the good or bad sense.

hence: "i think she would basically be obama II on foreign policy. opposed to "dumb wars" but not to the whole shebang. doubt she'd stop the drone war, for example."

Has Sanders come out against the drone program?

Think he's waiting for the ilm ambient poll to be done first.

btw, here are some Cliff Notes on Warren's positions on foreign policy and healthcare that I found after 5 seconds on Google so we can at least make guesses with some context around what she has actually said/done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Elizabeth_Warren#Foreign_policy_and_national_security
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Elizabeth_Warren#Health_care

i think sanders has been wishy-washy about whether he'd use drones. he's been weaker than i'd like on a lot of foreign policy stuff, but it's impressed me that he's stuck to his guns on things like support for the sandinistas.

I don't think he still supports the Sandinistas. He's just not apologizing for having done so, which is good.

All I know is I got a new display name

― brigadier pudding (DJP)

full credit goes to thomas pynchon for that one

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I didn't know Gabbard and Butteigeg were the same age

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lol

Thanks! Thanks, definitely got to improve my phrasing in asking anything like this, but pretty indicative nonetheless!

i dunno man, i had a lot of hope in Warren and today is a bummer.

I lost my hope for her campaign a while back, but I really think she would have been our best chance.

some nice summary lookbacks from people today and she did a lot of admirable things that went unnoticed.

I kind of want to buy a last minute Warren shirt and send one to my trump supporting dad to be an asshole.

On the other hand my Warren hoodie is now cooler and more valuable

RIP
http://i.imgur.com/tMRUFdz.png

and I haven't even gotten to vote yet! primaries suck!

i was happy to get in a vote for her. i mentioned my story before about my wife talking to her at the airport right before the 2016 election, she stood next to her in line and EW was really passionately talking policies with her. She flew coach.

:(

https://i.redd.it/zi1a6jpjkvk41.png

they stuck tulsi in prematurely. or maybe she forgot she's running?

it's a running gag

Had polls disabled on ilxor when this came out. Would have voted: I like her plans for these just fine, she has a plan for that.

Everyone should know that the best that could be accomplished in 2021 if Manchin, Jones, Sinema, Warner etc provide the marginal Senate votes is some form of subsidized public option. Warren was honest about that. She wasn't as divergent from the foreign policy blob as I would have liked, but I could live with a more circumspect version of Obama, here, without the needling of Samantha Powers types.

i find it weird to keep seeing the bankruptcy bil non-beating the dead horse with biden come up as a criticism (maybe maybe it was just ilx and only 1-2 people) Because, i seriously thought she had mentioned it multiple times already. Like a lot of people's criticisms were just so peculiar. But i haven't been on the debate team since jr high and just couldn't be bothered getting citations.