HBO's adaptation of Game of Thrones - Thread 2. There are a lot of nerds.

I have to wait 5 or 6 days each week to see the newest episode and have managed to avoid spoilers so far because I only use internet at weekends. This week I may have to avoid the newspaper section at supermarkets.

I suspect the people most disappointed who jumped on later are soap opera fans who are really into Harrington and Clarke as celebrities?

Counterpoint: Game of Thrones *is* a soap opera, just not a very good one, and as the fantasy elements have faded and fans have faced that reality, it turns out the central soapy conflicts are just not that compelling or convincing without the magic stuff as a distraction. Which might work in a silly never-ending soap opera narrative - it's Jon Snow's evil brother, with a mustache! - but doesn't necessarily work in a story with a developed start to finish narrative. Or at least, not as it's been rushed out. Crazy overnight heel turns are what you do in soaps to keep the story going when you've run out of stuff to do, it shouldn't be a story aim in itself.

Has there ever been a good soap opera? I meant the type that airs at least once a week or more.

Coronation Street

I don't know about *good* soap operas, but obviously people were really into Dallas, or LA Law, or ER and stuff like that.

When was Coronation Street good? It definitely wasn't good late 90s/early 00s when I watched it at dinner time with family.

Many people said Eastenders was genuinely good at one time (including David Bowie) but I'm very skeptical.

Soap opera is one of my least favorite things about superhero comics.

I bet George Martin only called it Game of Thrones because Dynasty was taken.

Corrie rises and falls over the decades but pisses all over this and has (or has had RIP) much better quality dragons. Lol @ Bowie in authentocrat mode and taking a break from talking risible bollox about Damien Hirst to feign a liking for Eastenders.

mad men was a soap opera, basically.

coronation street was p good imo.

xpost

I mainly saw it in the Fred Elliot/Les Battersby era and it was pretty awful.

Didn't Mad Men have broader themes?

I'd never label GoT a soap opera. It isn't realist enough. Isn't the point of soap opera you can connect with the characters? The setting is more often as not familiar? Except Dynasty or Dallas. GoT is fantasy. It does take cues from soap opera.

My point was that a lot of the fantasy elements maybe drew people in, but the same fantasy elements have been dispatched with ruthless efficiency.

eastenders was plenty enjoyable in the early dirty den days up through his disappearance.

Josh- Dunno, initially the show drew people in for the roughly historical elements, some used that awful tag "fantasy for people who hate fantasy"*, the show didn't have as much dragons early on. Some viewers really didn't want it to go into dragon/white walker territory too much and would have preferred it without.

*Should have been "fantasy for people who don't know how common this mode of fantasy actually is"

I honestly don’t mind this season at all. I get that it’s not as good as the first four, but don’t really care, as there’s still loads to enjoy. It’s certainly nowhere near the big mess that BSG or Lost were at this point. Probably closer to the Wire - underwhelming but fine.

I get and agree with most of the complaints but the big moments are still totally thrilling for me, probably because of the earlier seasons.

Like, I do keep going "this scene is dragging", "that could have been much better" and "not his shoulders, why aren't you stabbing him in the eyes?" but most of the suspense is still working on me.

Any of you feeling "meh" the entirety of the last few episodes?

Josh, I agree and it's actually a good point. Actually the "soapiness" drew me in, not the fantasy.

Not really 'meh' as much as 'FUCK THIS SHIT'

No frission at all?

The fact that Lost's final season IMDB rating does not completely plummet basically invalidates the whole exercise.

TBH most of the people most vocally hating on the last episode are so annoying it actually makes me want to defend it on principle.

I've been thinking a bit about how 'nuanced' everything has gotten in criticism, focused on 'explainers' rather than critique per se. Yeah, there's been moments I liked, like Ghost and Thormund going off to live beyond the wall, but on the whole, this has just been abysmally bad, a complete collapse, a failure on every level. Every battle has been idiotic, but for a few moments, which then hasn't been followed up on. All the characters are behaving nonsensically, and the resolutions to the long running plots, which might have made sense on some level, has been handled awfully. It's just a 0/10, like the end of Dexter, or How I Met Your Mother.

BSG and Lost are different. That's really weird and complex narratives that strained under too many mysteries. But GoT got rid of everything mysterious a while back, and they've just failed because nothing made sense anyway.

When was How I Met Your Mother good?

But it was supposed to become good when they met the mother!

I'm just an armchair observer at this point, but so much of GoT seemed to be about portent and prophecies and the like that it was able to kind of skimp on character development. That is, when the character is defined by what he or she is going to do, you don't need to know much else. Why does Jon Snow come back from the dead? Because he has to do the thing. Why does it have to be him to do the thing? Because the Gods favor him. Or something. But then you get rid of all the magic stuff and reach the end and there's no more time for prophecies, just the people, but the people largely remain ciphers, which makes the magic stuff seem in retrospect all the more superfluous, devices in service of not much.

BSG, its problem was sort of the opposite. It was very much about characters and people and their relationships in a stressful situation, but then it increasingly became about prophecies. But what made even its ending tolerable were the characters, which we had grown to like and know.

the show has had plenty of well-realized characters but as the show has gone along the nuance and character-based plotting has been replaced by spectacle and shocks, both of which can work on their own as entertainment but they wind up feeling emptier. The Lannisters were all vv interesting up to a point, Ned was cool, Catelyn was imo a phenomenal character elevated by the best performance in the series, Daenerys was actually fine for awhile and her ultimate character denouement is great except for the fact that they didn't want to do the hard work of making it believable.

It's not what it could have been but the show remains on its present terms entertaining but the disappointment stemming from what it once was makes it seem even worse than it probably is.

But then you get rid of all the magic stuff and reach the end and there's no more time for prophecies, just the people, but the people largely remain ciphers, which makes the magic stuff seem in retrospect all the more superfluous, devices in service of not much.

BSG, its problem was sort of the opposite. It was very much about characters and people and their relationships in a stressful situation, but then it increasingly became about prophecies. But what made even its ending tolerable were the characters, which we had grown to like and know.

Actually, the problems were similar -- in both shows you have characters with varying levels of development and likeability, and then the shows do weird flips where many of the characters seem/feel inconsistent. I feel like Game of Thrones is actually more consistent in terms of characters seeming credible than in BSG. Like, compare Dany to Starbuck ... and it makes Game of Thrones look better.

Also the only bits of memorable dialogue left seem to be direct book lifts (Tormund's story) or restatements of earlier dialogue.

Probably closer to the Wire - underwhelming but fine.

― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, May 19, 2019 9:18 AM (two hours ago)

Yeah, I think you're right, with similar flaws to the last season of The Wire.

I can't think of any character betrayals in s5 of The Wire anywhere near as egregious as, say, Jaime. Not even close.

I don't see Jaime's "arc" as being a betrayal at all? It definitely seems more consistent than Lester signing on to the serial killer plot

maybe it "betrays" a viewer's desire for consistency? For redemption? For a fictional character to be more heroic or a better person than the average human being? But when faced with the potential death/humiliation of the woman he loved for most of his life, and the option to do nothing vs. try to "save her"? This makes total sense to me.

like a "betrayal" for Jaime's character would be like him saying, "Hey, I think I'm gonna go find that guy Hot Pie and help him with his tavern! I do like a good meal."

to an extent it actually seems to fit in a bit with what happens w/a lot of cable drama dude antiheroes albeit in a more heightened theatrical fantasy way: they try to change and become better people and fail.

ha it's a total "trope" ... also the dude alienated from his ex, rushing back to save her ...

family being your downfall, not an uncommon thing in these stories. hmm

Jaime AND Cersei endings would have both been way better if she had up her sleeve a plan to use wildfire to destroy her invaders at the expense of her own people. Jaime shows up, she ends up telling him this before she goes through with it. Yadda yadda yadda, Jaime is forced to kill her for the same reason he killed the mad king. Lives up to his name, lives up to his redemption story, is the ultimate end to his struggle with himself and his relationship with his sister etc. Very painful for him. Heartfelt scene of her dying in his arms and all the conflicting feelings. Her having had any sort of sneaky plan is consistent with her character and her ruthlessness, she used wildfire before and will do it again, the people of KL hate her anyway (and her them). Would have made sense.

Meanwhile Dany goes ahead and destroys the city with her OWN fire. Oh the irony! Jaime looks on from the tower in horror. He believed, though however horribly painful it was for him to do, so much more so to do this time around, that he did the right thing and saved his people yet again. But nope, Dany is burning them all. Crushed, he jumps out the same window that Tommen did with a similar scene of destruction happening in the distance.

TBH most of the people most vocally hating on the last episode are so annoying it actually makes me want to defend it on principle.

Although I did kind of want Jaime to kill Cersei and Dany to lose her shit and be dealt with, I'm a little perplexed by the enthusiasm some viewers have for these kind of endings because they seem a bit too obvious and maybe only interesting if there are good enough additional aspects or moving close to the trope but then sidestepping it. Cant really be bothered with simple "oh dear, killed by their own flaws" or "oh dear, they can never change" endings.

My my, their Flaws proved to be their undoing! How clever!

Jamie killing Cersei wouldnt make sense to me at all.

I could maybe see him killing her because he would prefer that to her inevitable execution or killing by someone else?

Or accidentally killing her.

Although I did kind of want Jaime to kill Cersei and Dany to lose her shit and be dealt with, I'm a little perplexed by the enthusiasm some viewers have for these kind of endings because they seem a bit too obvious and maybe only interesting if there are good enough additional aspects or moving close to the trope but then sidestepping it. Cant really be bothered with simple "oh dear, killed by their own flaws" or "oh dear, they can never change" endings.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, May 19, 2019 4:19 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Would have been obvious yes but at least more of a compelling ending for both characters? imo

I don't have much preference for Jaime's ending, only that the handling should be good and not too simple.

HBO releasing the Game of Thrones finale

pic.twitter.com/nAhMzE3StX

— KFC Radio (@KFCradio) May 17, 2019

I think Tyrion just explained to Jon that Danerys is the United States

Shit, I forgot Brutus from Rome was even in this and looking old as hell.

they said the title are you kidding me

Honestly that was mostly fine