t/s: george michael vs michael jackson

Michael

george michael.

supported the miners, fairly early coming out for a british public figure, sexier, not a pederast, better uk xmas number 1

MJ's the deeper artist, I would've said even half a decade ago.

In the last four years -- even before his death -- I've been re-visiting GM's music and come away astonished by its range and beauty.

If we're voting for the music: Michael Jackson.
If we're voting for the person: George Michael.

xp and he produced it himself!

i too am astonished by the range and beauty of GM's work as i dig into it, especially with andy ridgeley as wham!

for example i think "everything she wants" can go toe-to-toe with "billie jean" or really anything MJ ever did

I mean, I will never be convinced that George Michael ever released an album as front-to-back great as the three Quincy produced Michael Jackson records, but all of those records were pretty much designed to be blockbusters. Faith, Listen Without Prejudice and Older are all on a much smaller scale, but they're full of some really beautiful moments that continue to hold up, and the best of his work with Wham! remains good fun.

I admit to preferring post-peak GM more than post-peak MJ, but there's not a whole lot of material there in the case of the latter.

Well, how are you defining post-peak GM and post-peak MJ? Because in the UK, I guess that post-peak GM would be after Older and post-peak MJ would essentially be Invincible (HIStory was huge here!)

faith is an incredibly consistent huge pop record, as is listen without prejudice

Neither has much "post-peak" music. GM has a covers album and Patience, and the latter's good to excellent.

Good point. I meant post-peak on American charts, basically.

faith is an incredibly consistent huge pop record, as is listen without prejudice

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, May 10, 2019 9:05 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You're right about them being pop records.

idk all the songs on both of those albums are good-to-great? not sure what argument you're making here

Oh god, of all of MJ's big post-Dangerous hits, I keep forgetting about 'You Are Not Alone', which is just as well given who wrote it, let alone who sang it.

for example i think "everything she wants" can go toe-to-toe with "billie jean" or really anything MJ ever did

― the late great, Friday, May 10, 2019 1:54 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh weird i was about to make this exact suggestion. maybe not "billie jean" but def other mj singles

"everything she wants" will fill any dancefloor afaik

I fill every karaoke room with my version of "Wake Me Up Before You Go Go," which in its joy and risking of silliness is as great as "I Want You Back."

idk all the songs on both of those albums are good-to-great? not sure what argument you're making here

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, May 10, 2019 9:13 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm not disputing that Faith and Listen Without Prejudice aren't good records - they are, and they've given me many hours of listening pleasure, as it were. However, they're very different beasts to those Quincy produced Jackson records. I feel that the goals with the two artists were different.

With George Michael's stuff, and even considering the fact that Faith sold a fuckton, the art feels to me to be a hell of a lot more personal. He's very much the head creator of those records in every sense - writing all the lyrics, writing all the music, arranging everything, producing the record himself. It's mostly a one-man effort, with various session musicians drafted in for embellishment. With an emphasis on personal expression as much as hits, and with all the songwriting coming from one person, naturally there are peaks and troughs.

With Michael Jackson's stuff, there is a very deliberate attempt on behalf of the singer and producer to choose the absolute best material, work with the best musicians possible, everything about those albums is calculated to the Nth degree. They have been calculated and designed to be huge records that shift a fuckton of units. On those records, you can pretty much tell they had a policy that nothing was going to go on that album unless it was of a certain standard, no matter where it came from.

I think it goes without saying that Quincy's production decisions on those records were OTM. Off the Wall and Thriller are filler-free, and they got pretty damn close on Bad, too.

I'm not sure if you intended it, but you created a binary between "personal expression" (GM) and commercial-minded studio craft (MJ) as if they weren't the same thing.

I hear far more of "George Michael" in his music than I do of "Michael Jackson" in his.

yawn

george michael mostly did the album himself as one person, therefore it is more personal

michael jackson hired a professional producer, therefore it is a more professional effort

stunning insights

Apart from HIStory of course, where naturally the events surrounding Jackson at the time had eroded the veneer somewhat and the showbizzy mask slipped a little bit and he made quite possibly his angriest, most personal statement.

(xx-post)

I hear far more of "George Michael" in his music than I do of "Michael Jackson" in his.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Friday, May 10, 2019

You know them personally?

Okay, let's compare the two records that came out in the same year: Faith vs. Bad...

Faith has the title track and 'Father Figure' (evergreen classics), plus 'I Want Your Sex' and six other tracks that are mostly fondly remembered by the hardcore fans even if some of them were released as singles.

Bad has the title track, 'The Way You Make Me Feel', 'Man in the Mirror', 'Dirty Diana', 'Smooth Criminal' and 'Leave Me Alone', plus lesser gems like 'Liberian Girl', 'Another Part of Me' and 'I Just Can't Stop Loving You'... and all of 'em were released as singles!

You know them personally?

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, May 10, 2019 9:53 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Come on now, stop being silly, you know exactly what I'm getting at.

that MJ didn't address his kiddie fucking in song-form explicitly enough?

plus lesser gems like 'Liberian Girl', 'Another Part of Me' and 'I Just Can't Stop Loving You' ...

what makes those "lesser gems" and not "other tracks that are mostly fondly remembered by the hardcore fans"?

Exposure.

Come on now, stop being silly, you know exactly what I'm getting at.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican),

No, I don't! I write fiction. How does laboring over sentence more "personal" than making sure I had the best laptop, work space, notebooks, and lead pencils at my disposal? These things are impossible to judge and unimportant.

By which I mean, I have been confronted with those MJ songs on either radio or TV at least once in the last five years alone, compared to 'One More Try', 'Monkey' or 'Kissing a Fool', which I've heard a total amount of zero on either radio or TV in the last twenty.

(x-post)

in my universe the b-sides from bad are just as obscure as the b-sides from faith

i'll give you that bad has five big pop hits to faith's three, but that doesn't necessarily prove to me that "bad" is a better album than "faith"

By which I mean, I have been confronted with those MJ songs on either radio or TV at least once in the last five years alone, compared to 'One More Try', 'Monkey' or 'Kissing a Fool', which I've heard a total amount of zero on either radio or TV in the last twenty.

This is, as you correctly noted upthread, the difference between American and British airplay. Those singles are inescapable on adult contemporary radio in the States, "Monkey" aside.

iirc faith was less huge in the uk that it was in the us, which might also be influencing turrican’s posts

oh i see that was covered

anyway jesus christ is this ILM or the clear channel boardroom? do ppl really vote in polls based on what gets played more on the radio?!?

"people"

^^ i'm reading that post in daniel plainview's voice

in my universe the b-sides from bad are just as obscure as the b-sides from faith

iirc there were no B-sides from Bad? Father Figure had a Stevie Wonder cover but otherwise I think it's just album tracks and remixes too

sorry, i use the term too loosely. i just meant non-singles

"album tracks" whatever

Well, writing fiction and writing/recording music are completely different things. Do you know how many different factors are involved in making a record and how many decisions have to be made, all of which can affect the outcome of the end product in a major way?

Michael Jackson's pre-HIStory music, for me, is all sung, played, performed and written to the highest possible standard, yet very little of it reveals much about the person singing those songs, bar stuff like 'Leave Me Alone' of course. It's almost like you have to scrape through the endless layers of showbiz and carefully crafted persona to find out what's really in there, and a lot of times there isn't anything there at all - by design, as good as the music is. Whereas the production values on George Michael's albums aren't anywhere near the shiny/blockbuster record standard set by those Michael Jackson albums, but you get more of a sense of who the person is singing those songs, and of course the approach taken to recording those albums makes it more personal by default... how could it not?

yet very little of it reveals much about the person singing those songs

insert Oscar Wilde quote

what is "The person" and who bloody cares? A song is an expression of a POV through a mask.

It can be. In the case of these two, Jackson's mask is so thick that the person behind it is a hermit.

Do you know how many different factors are involved in making a record and how many decisions have to be made, all of which can affect the outcome of the end product in a major way?

0_o

The dearth of the author

i just meant non-singles / "album tracks" whatever

ah right, agree that the "lesser" singles/etc from both are as obscure as each other in my real world of not listening to commercial radio too. but I think I've only heard pre-Bad MJ in the wild this century too

[also lol Bad famously only had two album tracks. even the CD-only bonus track had a single release more high-profile than most of the others! I definitely can't remember anything about Speed Demon, and I got Bad on LP for Christmas '87]

same as Thriller, Faith, etc.

I was born in 1988 so I don't really have the understanding how either of them existed as ~celebrities~ in their 80s peak. I think of Billie Jean as a massive song but I don't believe a single word of it because the idea of MJ in a torrid love affair debating a baby's paternity seems so out-of-sync with the persona of MJ I grew up with - ballads like Earth Song and You Are Not Alone, all the nonsense around his kids, the accusations. It just doesn't seem believable from the angle I'm coming at it. Whereas GM singing Freeeak or Outside always felt so real, because GM was sexual and playful and basically not overshadowed by who he was.

Well every big album (or movie) is a collective effort. And a collective effort doesn’t mean you can’t express a personal point of view, does it ?
I don’t really understand this discussion, I guess !

I don't know how people can bear to listen to Lou Reed, after he confessed to killing a man in the song "Kicks".

Surprised that Older is getting so little mention on this thread. To me it's George's best record by miles.

It's not as good as Off The Wall though.

Imo George acquits himself better on mid tempo and ballad material. MJ stronger on purely uptempo stuff.

(I like Freedom 90, Fastlove etc)

Michael Jackson, easily

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I like GM but come on !
I suppose the results are not based on music/performance considerations only...

why wouldn't they?

Well, it's possible of course but I have a hard time thinking 60% of people like GM more than MJ if you strictly consider musical aspects.

95% of MJs music is garbage

ahah ok then !

No challops itt, I see.

80% garbage is fair and generous for Jackson's solo material - even the Quincy albums have a lot of highly competent dross, and there's little of worth outside them

I like GM but come on !
I suppose the results are not based on music/performance considerations only...

― AlXTC from Paris, Friday, May 17, 2019 9:54 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was trying to refrain from saying "only on ILM" for the 100th time the moment the poll results came in, but yeah, this is one of those "only on ILM" things.

You mean it's only on ILM that Michael Jackson is judged on more than just the music?

We need a poll on who had the better post-death acts of kindness discoveries

MJ could never, would never, write a song like "Outside" GM forever.

yes!

its kind of obvious of course, but it’s interesting to see how GM/Wham had hits but was not really taken seriously at all in the 80s but has now firmly been rehabilitated, while MJ had the opposite arc.

Challops time: MJ was only good in the '70s (with his '79 solo album Off the Wall being his only good solo album). Not weighing in on George Michael, though, whose music I'm not as familiar with (though I did admire his singing talent).

I hadn't listened to Ladies & Gentlemen until now - I wanted to put on his uptempo/dance material, so I streamed disc two, and it's pretty awesome. The split (which pushes all the ballads on to disc one) doesn't feel like a utilitarian gimmick, at least for disc two, which really flows like a cohesive work in its own right. Even with the omission of "I Want Your Sex Pt. 1," I'd put it up there with Off the Wall as one of the great dance albums (and IMHO that was the only truly great album Jackson ever recorded - nothing else he did ever came close in terms of consistency).

as front-to-back great as the three Quincy produced Michael Jackson records

I think the only one of those three that actually meets that description is Off the Wall. The other two are about half great and half not so great.