BTW, Peter, next time I'm in Tokyo I'll try to snag some volumes of Be Free!, since you and Adam Warren have spoken highly of it.
― Blair Gilbreath, Monday, 6 May 2019 19:42 (two years ago) link
I grew up reading Marvel comics. Thor, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Hulk. I return to the opening post of this thread. Do the lives of fictional characters matter? A fictional character exists in order to enable the experience of the story. If they decide they'll kill off this one or that one this time, it can't be done in such an arbitrary way. A character's fate must be intrinsic to the story's structure, because the narratives' meaning makes it necessary. Watching Endgame is like watching a fantasy football match. This side wins this time, but it could just as easily have been the other team. Either way means nothing. Just a chance to cheer for your team.
― Peter Chung, Monday, 6 May 2019 20:01 (two years ago) link
The old Marvel comics were great.
The last superhero movie I tried watching was Guardians Of The Galaxy, and it nearly put me to sleep. Maybe it was the arbitrariness you mention. I still don't know what the point of that film was. AFAICT, it seemed to be an appeal to nostalgia for something I've never experienced.
― Blair Gilbreath, Monday, 6 May 2019 21:52 (two years ago) link
I've never been able to mourn the deaths of film characters, as in grieving for the loss of that person's life. I can, however, think of two instances when the death of a character made me cry real tears. These are both old works, but mild spoilers.Osamu Dezaki's Dear Brother and the Stanley Donen/ Lerner-Loewe film of The Little Prince. In both cases, the tragedy consists of the precise context of the event. I feel nothing at the end of Endgame when a major hero dies, just as I felt nothing at the end of Infinity War. These aren't real people, and I don't understand why their "passing" is sad. It's a charade of unearned emotion.
― Peter Chung, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 17:45 (two years ago) link
The character isn't dying so much as the actor is dying. (contract termination as a kind of mortality)We'll probably see all these characters again but not with that particular actor in it.
I haven't seen The Little Prince since childhood but what I remember is that Gene Wilder was in it and I don't think I could watch it the same way in that he was alive when I watched it last and now he's not.
I can't imagine any academic instruction doing it, but can you think of any that would broach how to deal with or control such extradiegetic resonances?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 19:01 (two years ago) link
I suppose there could be an academic treatise or some cultural aesthetic theory on the topic, but like many academic pursuits, would serve only to be another useless PHD thesis from which no one will derive any real world value. Some subjective phenomena are better left to be dealt with in a spontaneous, imaginative way by the individual. The fact that Donen died recently is far more resonant with me, though I don't let that affect the experience of appreciating his work.
― Peter Chung, Thursday, 9 May 2019 14:52 (two years ago) link
The thing about action movies, to me, is that they're kind of like a thrill ride or rock music even. Whether its The Matrix or Transformers 2, if your able to plug in to it, you can be elevated to a kind of ecstatic experience. Or you can find yourself unable to go along with it.
I still resonate deeply with the heroes journey, so that helps me plug in to an extent. Kung fu movies, Ninja Turtles movies.. I still feel the impact of these films from my childhood. They helped send me down a path that I am still very much engaged with. When films come along that manage to speak to me at this level its an awesome thing.
For better or worse it seems lots of people are still very much hopped up on the heroes journey. But that's a whole other discussion I guess.
Blair, my point was more about the problem of judging peoples levels of meaningful engagement with stories when we lack access to their experience.
― Sam G, Saturday, 11 May 2019 18:06 (two years ago) link
Sam, I agree entirely with you on the point of sometimes wanting simply to be swept away by a well done traditional heroes journey. Aquaman worked for me. It reinforces my view that it is not the story that is as important as the sensory experience of a movie. One sometimes finds deeper and unintended resonances in the most escapist films. Also I prefer Speed Racer to The Matrix. They both tell a similar story, but the lack of pretension in Speed Racer makes it feel more pure and sincere.
My favorite movies are often called pretentious by general audiences. But it is wrong to call a work pretentious that has lofty ambitions and succeeds in delivering them. To be pretentious means to make unwarranted claims.
― Peter Chung, Saturday, 11 May 2019 20:42 (two years ago) link
I recently discovered this thread and I've been thinking a lot about it. I've noticed as I watch more anime that a lot of them have the same issue as Ghost In The Shell: they're directed in a confusing way to create an illusion of depth. The recent anime short, Rick and Morty vs. Genocider, does this too. I was surprised to find fans generally like it, even though they've been struggling to figure out the plot. After a few watches, I think I understand what happened, but I had no emotional response to it except confusion.
― Kelpie, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:42 (eleven months ago) link
Also, I agree that the concept of a purely objective morality, independent of the subjective experiences of the human condition, is nonsensical. If we had no subjective experiences like happiness and suffering, we could have no concept of good and evil. Even if we ground morality in God, we still ground them in God's subjective feelings, like love for mankind (we're assuming God's feelings are similar to our own.)
― Kelpie, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 20:57 (eleven months ago) link
I disagree with that, but how do you see that having any negative implications on a narrative? wouldn't an objective morality be much more interesting to contrast with our subjective one as a narrative conflict if we presume it exists?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 22:31 (eleven months ago) link
I'm not sure I follow. I think moral judgements involve both subjective and objective factors. Actually, all judgements do. Even math and science require a subjective human desire to know the truth. It doesn't necessarily make a difference in how moral decisions are handled in narratives, or in everyday life.
― Kelpie, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 23:10 (eleven months ago) link
if you presume that all morality is subjective, then that eliminates a profound amount of tension in many kinds of stories.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 23:31 (eleven months ago) link
I think moral judgements involve both subjective and objective factors. "Objective morality vs. subjective morality" is a false dichotomy to begin with.
― Kelpie, Thursday, 6 August 2020 11:45 (eleven months ago) link
So, I've been reading about moral philosophy and I've found some people who seem to reject the objective vs. subjective dichotomy. The ones I really like are Iris Murdoch and Philippa Foot. Their view of morality is like this: Morality is our term for the rational pursuit of happiness, in accordance with the particulars of psychology. As a human being, this is what you're constructed to do. You have no choice about your moral nature, only whether you perform it well or poorly. Human opinion does not determine moral principles, but human psychology does.
― Kelpie, Saturday, 5 September 2020 01:06 (ten months ago) link
"You have no choice about your moral nature, only whether you perform it well or poorly."The problem with debates about morality is the that the term "morality" is being used to describe a vast range of factors and conflicting interests.Your statement's meaning is ambiguous to the point where it could be saying too many different things. I know that I've changed my moral position on a number of issues during my life. As you become more informed and more wise, your moral compass will shift.One could argue that your moral nature is independent of how much you know, but you could just as well define moral nature as that which emerges in a way entirely dependent on what you know. A child with little life experience is not held to the same standard of morality as an adult.
― Peter Chung, Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:50 (ten months ago) link
Moral philosophy is the project of generalizing approaches to decision making with the purpose of maximizing the chances of optimal outcomes. It is a system of measuring the desirability of actions in the same way that the metric system is a tool for measuring physical properties. It is essentially a practical tool for everyday decision making. The problem arises when these guiding principles (generalizations) start to be viewed as having some innate value, as if they are cosmic rules that exist outside of human opinion. They do not. They exist because they are helpful and practical. That is all morals are.
― Peter Chung, Thursday, 10 September 2020 10:12 (ten months ago) link
It's possible to use rhetoric to justify any moral stance. Internal consistency is used as a standard for judging the validity of a moral position. The "rational pursuit of happiness" sounds like a baseline value, but everyone's idea of what makes them happy is so varied that I wonder if it's really useful.
I've come to conclude that moral principles are, in fact, entirely explained as nothing more and nothing less than opinions. We decide what we want to call good and bad. We then use rhetoric to justify these opinions because we are taught to discount personal opinion as a sufficient basis for judgment. It would be better to be honest and own up to the idea that people hold their opinions with high regard. The act of voting in a democratic election is driven by opinion. We accord opinion with the highest value when it comes to politics. Supreme court decisions are opinions.
Opinions can change. Philosophy exists to serve our opinions, not the other way around. Our opinions are primary.
It becomes a complex exercise because it quickly becomes meta. We hold the opinion that we want rational ideas of fairness to guide our moral decisions. But that desire for rationality is itself an opinion.
― Peter Chung, Thursday, 10 September 2020 10:46 (ten months ago) link