Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

my take is not to take the dialogue in an article that's not really about you too personally!

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/

Oh look, more gratuitously anecdotal, us vs. them bullshit.

Yeah, i mean, i’m of two minds here.

Emotional labor and domestic labor are important concwpts in feminism. Invaluable, even, in illuminating historical inequities.

This seems like yet another pop culture vulgarization of these kinds of concepts though. It’s not demonstrating some kind of structural fact of society, it’s just bashing people for because they didn’t make enough friends in their life.

For me it definitely is work. When my work life was unfulfilling and unchallenging and I had excess capacity, I have been the sympathetic ear/unpaid therapist for many of my closest friends over the years, not unwillingly. At the time it felt like friendship.

My work-life sitch is more extreme now, and uses a lot of my emotional capacity before I get home so when my boyfriend is discouraged/depressed/needs to work through things, I can barely even be there for him and I've been telling him for 5 years to get a therapist because I'm not one. It's definitely labor.

And what does this say to women who didn’t “prioritize yoga and therapy” in their illness? That they messed up somehow and don’t even have the excuse of toxic gender socialization? The whole framing is just deeply flawed

Self xp

I think "yoga and therapy" was doing the work of prioritizing your own needs in that article, and not specifically those two things? That particular paragraph was about a woman explaining she was spending a disproportionate amount of time tending to her partner's social needs and acting as an ad hoc therapist

as in, she knew what she needed to be on an even keel and she was spending that time on someone else

Her perspective on that relationship is of course valid. It was too draining and she had to step away. But the anecdote is used in the service of this larger narrative about men not taking care of their mental health and slagging that burden off on their partners. Maybe there is truth there but also like a symptom of depression is an inability to take care of oneself properly

feel like we're delving deeply into the metatextual weeds here with a wee bit of projection

I find my difficulty in making and maintaining friendships has a lot more to do with capitalism than maleness. I don’t have that much trouble expressing feelings, have seen therapists, and if anything have done more than my share of emotional labor in relationships.

Treesh, in response to "The persistent idea that seeking therapy is a form of weakness has produced a generation of men suffering from symptoms like anger, irritability, and aggressiveness, because not only are they less likely than women to pursue mental health help, but once they do, they have a hard time expressing their emotions. (This is so common there’s even a technical term for it: “normative male alexithymia.”) For millennial men in particular, a major challenge is understanding they need help in the first place."

...I didn't read that as "millennial men are even worse than previous generations," but rather as "because (this certain profile of) millennial men have already defined themselves in opposition to an outdated patriarchal model, they think they have this whole thing solved because they're not like their dads--so they've stopped inspecting their emotional needs and where they're turning to for them."

Anyway yeah projection--whoo! Also if you are someone who's already gone to therapy, has a MH diagnosis and a treatment plan, etc etc, you are obviously NOT in the group being examined here--I would have thought that was clear but ymmv.

I don’t think it’s about me

The whole framing is just deeply flawed

The popular press is a very flawed source of information. It always has been. The nostalgia for editors as 'gatekeepers' who controlled and directed the flow of information (of which I am as guilty as anyone) is based on something real, but is greatly overblown. Gifted and intelligent editors have always been scarce. The only advantage most of them had over today's internet freelancers and click-baiters was a set of heuristics derived over decades and passed along from editor to editor within the publisher they worked for.

Reading critically is the only way to get value out of printed matter.

Yeah. I was trying to read it critically. The idea that people are at fault for not maintaining friendships and becoming mentally ill is what I found uncomfortable with the article. There are some strong economic winds pulling people away from each other. And it isn’t just men who experience this. Not all women have these amazing support networks of friends to fall back on

I find my difficulty in making and maintaining friendships has a lot more to do with capitalism than maleness.

I think this is a great point, and it's supported by this link, which was included in the HB article: The biggest threat facing middle-age men isn’t smoking or obesity. It’s loneliness.

During the week, much of my waking life revolves around work. Or getting ready for work. Or driving to work. Or driving home from work. Or texting my wife to tell her I’m going to be late getting home from work.

...

I love “dada time.” And I’m pretty good about squeezing in an hour of “me time” each day for exercise, which usually means getting up before dawn to go to the gym or for a run. But when everything adds up, there is no real “friend time” left. Yes, I have friends at work and at the gym, but those are accidents of proximity. I rarely see those people anywhere outside those environments, because when everything adds up, I have left almost no time for friends.

Sorry https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2017/03/09/the-biggest-threat-facing-middle-age-men-isn-smoking-obesity-loneliness/k6saC9FnnHQCUbf5mJ8okL/story.html

Yeah bingo

I find my difficulty in making and maintaining friendships has a lot more to do with capitalism than maleness

i think that the use of these megadistant immutable superstructures as focii points for a personal emotional health is an approach doomed to fail from the start, saying that with full emphasis on the YMMV principle obv

darragh how do you think capitalism and its demands on individuals within it as a superstructure is a megadistant force? imo on a very basic material level we are forced to reckon with capitalism on a daily basis

agreed

but i think its like blaming gravity for being hit by a rock (or a collection of rocks or whatever)

not correct but not the first or best way to avoid the rocks

sorry, not *in*correct

People are working long hours and have little material security. They have little time and energy to form lasting social bonds beyond their primary one with their romantic partner. And this in turn puts too much pressure on romantic relationships so they buckle under the weight

megadistant wasn't even the wrongest adjective dmac applied to capitalism there

'Capitalism' can mean many things. In Ireland, 'employees are entitled to 4 weeks of paid annual leave and 9 paid public holidays' (I'm quoting Wikipedia here), whereas in the US

There is no federal or state statutory minimum paid vacation or paid public holidays. Paid leave is at the discretion of the employers to its employees. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, 77% of private employers offer paid vacation to their employees; full-time employees earn on average 10 vacation days after one year of service. Similarly, 77% of private employers give their employees paid time off during public holidays, on average 8 holidays per year. Some employers offer no vacation at all.[182] The average number of paid vacation days offered by private employers is 10 days after 1 year of service, 14 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 20 days after 20 years.

The headline for this article on google search results is “How Men Became Emotional Gold Diggers.”

https://www.google.com/search?q=harpers+bazaar+men&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

now i dont wish to go to bat for capitalism nor to be seen to do so

but treesh, whilst i argue for a focus on the personal interface with the world as a more positive, achievable/constructive approach than the naming of the horizon-level societal challenge, i do still know what was meant by "capitalism" yknow

all of those factors affect everyone in the system, women too
i don't understand why that invalidates the idea that men lean on the women in their lives as emotional crutches

The premises of the piece though are radically capitalistic. Emotional connection is “gold” and people are seen as being too greedy for it.

xp deems

i should have said SOME men so as not to infuriate anyone

lots of people behave badly in lots of different ways. much of the time they are incapable of diagnosing this in themselves.

i presume nobody rushing to debate how capitalism affects everyone alive would contest that projection of one's ills onto a ephemeral behemoth can lead to an apathy towards engagement with the low level changes or transactions in self-ccare that could be ... idk good?

xp yep

the idea that men lean on the women in their lives as emotional crutches

xp - like any overly broad generalization, this one contains every shade of accuracy from exactly correct to its inverse.

i should have said SOME men so as not to infuriate anyone

ty

so are we pro male friendship now

pom i wouldnt get up in the morning for only 4 weeks but men in ireland have been known to also suffer from mental health difficulties bytimes it is reported some may even have been ok to their womenfolk now look i dont believe it either but i heard it said is all

Also the concept of men having female friends does not exist in this article.

Everyone should have friends in addition to their romantic partners.

it is reported some may even have been ok to their womenfolk

Oh stop flouncing about dramatically and throwing yourself on the settee with an exhausted air. ;) You understand perfectly well (I think?!) that there's a spectrum of "requiring emotional labor from the woman in your life as your sole support" which bears little or no relation to being or not being "okay to womenfolk."

Also, and this is to everyone, let's not conflate "had a bad day and need to talk it out to figure out why that person upset me so much, maybe it's something I never resolved from a prior conflict, hmmm nah I'll just go and get some of my partner's affection/attention to make me feel worthy again" with clinical mh conditions.

omg flouncing im reporting you

let's not conflate at all

I like how this topic breathes irate new life into ILX. Works every time.

sorry, i've had a bad day

I wasn't being sarcastic (well, only mildly, and not in your direction).

np, just joking myself!

I like how this topic breathes irate new life into ILX. Works every time.

― pomenitul, Monday, May 6, 2019 7:04 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I know, I'm not caught up on GOT so I can't go on that thread and I was in danger of getting bored with ilx so this is perfect.

i got an xbox one sorry lads i can only focus so much

During the week, much of my waking life revolves around work. Or getting ready for work. Or driving to work. Or driving home from work. Or texting my wife to tell her I’m going to be late getting home from work.
...

I love “dada time.” And I’m pretty good about squeezing in an hour of “me time” each day for exercise, which usually means getting up before dawn to go to the gym or for a run. But when everything adds up, there is no real “friend time” left. Yes, I have friends at work and at the gym, but those are accidents of proximity. I rarely see those people anywhere outside those environments, because when everything adds up, I have left almost no time for friends.

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, May 6, 2019 1:16 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Um yeah, this is EXACTLY me.

there's a spectrum of "requiring emotional labor from the woman in your life as your sole support"

Merely reporting my own experience here, but in my marriage it is my wife who has the enormous network of female friends and close acquaintances, while I am the hermit who much prefers to walk away into the emptiest wilderness I can find.

While my emotional life is not tranquil, it is very even-tempered and steady. Hers is much more volatile and shifting. Because of this, her need for 'support' is greater than mine. Contrary to the idea that I lean heavily on my wife for emotional support, and I think my wife would agree with this, I am by far her primary and most important source of emotional support. By way of contrast, her wide network of female friends creates a situation where she is often giving them emotional support, and she finds their demands on her to be much more difficult to meet than mine.

In our respective roles, I am happy to 'subsidize' her social activities through my more domestic ones, because I think hers are important and beneficial, and something I have little talent or inclination for. She provides me in return with very important companionship, but it isn't based on my sucking emotional labor out of her. I am more the rock on which her towering edifice of friendships is anchored. I don't really mind it. It suits my personality to fill that niche.

I'm really not trying to "not all men" this topic, I just question whether it's really accurate in this case. If toxic masculinity plays any role for me in this, it's that it makes especially unlikely to lean on my wife for emotional support, because then I'm not being "the rock of my family" or whatever I'm supposed to be.

I mean to the extent I seek emotional support (outside of when I'm in therapy, which I haven't been for a while), it's mostly from strangers on the internet, lol