Taking Sides: NEW ORDER VS RUSH?

New Order and the Cure are nothing alike, but ironically, "Friday I'm In Love" is one of the few Cure songs that actually sounds a little like New Order. That and "In Between Days" could pass in a pinch, vocalist aside. And coincidence or not, the Cure is one of those acts that in fact took a big leap (imo) with the addition of a new drummer and conspicuously dropped in quality when said drummer left. I agree that New Order is pretty generally incurious as musicians and writers. Their effortlessness (that is, nothing they've ever done has sounded like the product of much effort) is one of their greatest attributes. The Cure is essentially a psychedelic rock band, imo, which may explain why they're so often stumbling or steering into new sonic territory, but I get the impression they toil.

No accidents in Rush.

Sumner proves every time he sets pen to paper

too kind

Oh, and as for Smith the auteur, iirc the stylistic detours of KissMeX3 and a lot of the stuff on Disintegration came from him letting the others in on the songwriting process. Right?

New Order and Rush ... honestly, those are two bands where I still have no idea where the songs come from. A person? Jamming? Two (or more?) people putting their ideas together? I have no idea. Utterly inscrutable.

Let's give NO and Cure equal credit for the following: they're generous about songwriting credits, hence their invincibility into the 21st century. Members leave, but they don't quarrel over songwriting.

"Leave Me Alone" is one New Order song that I love and it does remind me of the Cure, musically. It probably hits just the right spot for me by providing those guitars without Robert Smith's histrionics.

i mean it's as accurate as, if i'm recalling correctly, "roxy music did everything on avalon that the blue nile tried and failed to do", i'd just let t share these kinds of takes and move on

― lowercase (eric), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:12 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Absolutely 100% accurate, then. Although, I'm talking about my comments on Avalon in their original form, which obviously I completely stand by, rather than the slight misquotation above.

I'm listening to A Farewell to Kings for the first time in years -- it's amazing how Rush is more New Orderlike insofar as I totally hear this as the band that will be making "Tom Sawyer" in 8 years or so, and yet, this does not resemble "Tom Sawyer" or "Limelight" -- it dawdles, it idles, it wanders -- it's like, they're still driving the same car, but whereas before they were doing day-drives in obscure hilly places, now they're going down a highway through big cities at night

that "cure did new order" thing really calls for a formal retraction or a very elaborate defense as the two bands' only similarities in any way are "they're from the 80s"

No it doesn't, no it doesn't and no, that isn't the case. Listen to the records.

thanks to jclc for awesome posts saying what I was too dumb/lazy expand on

as my final manic contribution of the morning here (if you believe that, real estate in Florida, etc) I want to say that Lifeson's interest in his guitar tone is as obsessive as Smith's & a TONE WAR poll would be great if we had more saddo tone-merchant guitar types on this board (saddo not meant as pejorative, I have spent more money on pedals than is befitting for a guy who mainly plays acoustic)

Rush and NO both '80s synth pioneers, in their own ways.

Lifeson's late 70s/early 80s lead playing is endlessly fascinating to me, real liquid and such interesting melodic ideas, almost like if Fripp decided to make music people enjoy

I don't think any classic rock 70s band did a better job of absorbing new wave and what was going on around them in better way, while staying so true to what they were....I mean so many acts through crappy synth horns on stuff, Rush came through with something as beautiful as Subdivisions

ironically, "Friday I'm In Love" is one of the few Cure songs that actually sounds a little like New Order. That and "In Between Days" could pass in a pinch, vocalist aside.

'In Between Days' is a really good example of many, actually. It's New Order's 'Dreams Never End' done properly, or doing New Order better than New Order, one could say.

you are such a little stinker

Also, 'The Lovecats' is an anomaly. Let's talk instead about how 'The Walk' is a better version of 'Blue Monday' ...

No.

I don't think any classic rock 70s band did a better job of absorbing new wave and what was going on around them in better way, while staying so true to what they were.

Genesis got really close on Duke and the incredible Invisible Touch, but yes overall Rush were better at it.

Turrican, I've liked you on many threads, often concluding that your detractors take you too seriously, but you're exhibiting your worst traits here. Insisting "no, it isn't" while a musician patiently explains similarities and differences is way too macho and aggro a stance for me. When several people with wildly different personalities tell me I have a problem, I don't know, I might look in the mirror.

Rush was better than most at borrowing from new wave. There were a lot of bands that aped the Police, but Rush incorporated elements of that band really well.

Rush in '82 and >> The Police

A lot of examples were cited of things that The Cure do which New Order couldn't do, which is OTM - there is no way that New Order have a Disintegration or 'The Lovecats' in them. That wasn't the point, though. The point was that when The Cure do New Order - which is more than most here would dare to admit - they do it better. Better lyrics, better singing, better playing, better production. I think it's pretty difficult to argue that, and I like New Order.

Like, New Order have a sound, but they're not even the best at it! I feel the same way about The Police vs. Rush, actually.

There were a lot of bands that aped the Police, but Rush incorporated elements of that band really well.

T/S Neil Peart vs. Stewart Copeland

I like how Rush is the secret catalyst for a New Order vs the Cure discussion

I enjoy Copeland's high tuned snare sound, particularly on Synchronicity, and rate him very highly as a drummer. I think Peart has the edge in terms of feel and technical skill, though. People like to talk about Peart's drumming in terms of cold, calculated technique, but there's a lot of feel in his drumming, a thing which people don't pay attention to because they're marvelling at the technique.

reading this thread from the top down, i got to this treeship post, and i'm just gonna stop there, because it's perfect:

i voted for new order but i wonder if i'd be happier if i was the kind of person who'd choose rush
― Trϵϵship, Monday, April 22, 2019 10:36 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I genuinely do not think the Cure "do new order" at all, ever. "The Walk" vs. "Blue Monday" is an interesting contrast for minor-key Oberheim-driven floor bangers of the 80s,I'll admit, but "Blue Monday" filled that floor -- the Cure was always more divisive, at least on the SoCal & PDX dance floors where I stepped to both songs when they were new. I mean we can disagree about this, that's fine, but I have in fact "listen[ed] to the records" -- they are not similar. The synth on "The Walk" sounds like something off a Goblin record. I'll own that these two share more space than most Cure & New Order tunes do, it does seem that Smith & Tolhurst were getting curious about what was up with dance 12"s & all that before they rediscovered acid, whereupon they do "The Top" -- a move New Order couldn't imagine in their most E-driven fantasies.

Turrican, I've liked you on many threads, often concluding that your detractors take you too seriously, but you're exhibiting your worst traits here.

How long before Alfred joins the ever growing legion of detractors? Poll maybe?

Let's talk instead about how 'The Walk' is a better version of 'Blue Monday' ...

It's a matter of taste, but if you don't have any knowledge of or appreciation for electronic music or dance music and are a boiled-beef-and-carrots rock fan then I can imagine holding this opinion.

To say that there are no similarities between 'The Walk' and 'Blue Monday' is a hell of a stretch!

Did anyone say there were no similarities?

How long before Tom D knocks off his obsession with me? 🤔

Did anyone say there were no similarities?

― Freddie Starr (Hitler in shorts) (Tom D.), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 3:01 PM (forty-five seconds ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink

They did, as it happens!

(xp) until you're banned again, I imagine.

a move New Order couldn't imagine in their most E-driven fantasies.

Rush guitarist Alex Lifeson is among the more colorful personalities in rock music, but he’s even more fun when he’s on drugs. At least that’s what we gather from an interview he did with Classic Rock shortly after his 60th birthday. Asked about his favorite drugs, he responded, “Cannabis, I think, is the best,” but then went on to expound on the many wonders of MDMA:

I did take ecstasy and that was fun. That was in the mid-90s. I loved it. So many relationships opened up and became deeper, and they remain so. It’s the one drug where you have those sorts of experiences and they stay with you. I found that after a while that was wearing off. The more you do it, the less it feels like those first times.

Lifeson then goes on to tell a hilarious story about doing ecstasy with his wife and listening to a lot of Nine Inch Nails and Tool:

I remember doing E one night with my wife, just the two of us. In the living room in our old house we had a huge sound system – 6,000 watts or something. We got dressed up and sat there drinking orange juice and smoking about a thousand cigarettes and we listened to Nine Inch Nails and Tool – all this loud, intense, heavy music. We had such a ball.

So there you have it. Not only does Alex Lifeson listen to heavy rock music, but he listens to it exactly as it’s intended to be heard.

Alex Lifeson, my man!

Amazing story

He "sat around" listening to Tool. What a waste!

Honestly, when I saw Tool live I was silently begging for a comfortable chair. They're dull as shit live.

In that sort of situation, you'd wanna be blasting something suitable that brings on that irresistible compulsion to shake arse. I'll bet Nine Inch Nails got him moving.

Pretty hip for a guy in Rush nonetheless.

I wonder if he ever listened to New Order or has an opinion on The Cure.

I bet he has.

wouldn't be at all surprising

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/mar/24/rush-moving-pictures

"as the 70s became the 80s Rush changed again, just as dramatically as they had when Peart joined. Hair was cut, and so were song lengths. Synths appeared. Lee was listening to Ultravox and Simple Minds, while the influence of the Police and Talking Heads was all over 1980's Permanent Waves and its massive hit single, Spirit of Radio."

a big reveal in This Is Not A Photograph, the Mission of Burma documentary is their manager said that right at they broke up they had just turned down an opening slot on Rush's North American tour

if they knew Burma and Ultravox it's probably safe to say they knew the Cure and New Order

Peart was 31 in 1983, Geddy and Alex were 30, the same age as David Byrne

Toronto station CFNY ("The Spirit of Radio"!)'s top albums list of 1982 includes both Rush and New Order: http://www.spiritofradio.ca/Charts.asp#1981

Uh: http://www.spiritofradio.ca/Charts.asp#1982

the Cure have gone through several drummers and afaik there's nobody arguing that a drummer change resulted in a severe reset of their sound

Not to suggest that Joan has not otherwise been joyously otm on this thread, but 96% of everybody would argue that (per Josh's caveat) a drummer change was coincident with a reset of their sound.

In the Tolhurst years, his limitations are the same as the other players to begin with, and as their skill increases beyond his, he continues to suit the style. There's a tension in the music, Smith trying to create big soundscapes with scant instrumentation, at the same time as his lyrics grow to express a tension between wracking emotions and fears, and his trained British incommunicativeness. Lol's slowly progressing drums help to keep an audible foot on the brake, a reassurance, a groundedness.

The addition of drum machines, delightfully, gave Smith a freedom that Lol's mechanical feel didn't, and then the Smith-plus-Andy-Anderson lineup gets you the immediate swerve of Love Cats, followed by the unprecedented freakout of The Top.

Boris then arrives and unshowily anchors the next decade's lineups of skilled musicians (plus Simon) who can play pop or goth or dreamy or heavy or airy or heartsick, whatever Bob or they are taken by in the grasp of whim, but have it all sound ineffably Like The Cure, no longer like a weird experiment that Robert Smith was trying at 4am with a wired engineer and a session bloke.

(they do this by completely reinventing what Like The Cure sounds like at this point, but they do it definitively. also nb Simon is good not bad)

And then Jason Thudfist turns up and institutes a quarter-century reign of boredom over the band's sound.

DJP can school us all on which songs from the 21st Century are Pretty Good Actually and The B-Sides That Should Have Been Singles, but every time I think "I am certain he is correct but also every flaw in them is surely borified by a factor of at least 4 due to the drumming," and my brain falls asleep and crawls out of my ear by the time I've played two youtubes, so I can never remember anything about them

is DJP still around?