Taking Sides: NEW ORDER VS RUSH?

Part of his/their charm. I love sharp objects!

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 4:18 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

that "cure did new order" thing really calls for a formal retraction or a very elaborate defense as the two bands' only similarities in any way are "they're from the 80s" -- bass tone not remotely similar; bass leads in new order (their real innovation), the cure is a guitar-centered band even though they do a lot of interesting things with that; Robert Smith can write a decent lyric, Sumner essentially does the old dadaist "cut up a newspaper article or a poem, drop the individual words into a bag, pull them out one by one and write them down in that order, the end result will be a poem about you" thing -- and in any case, even if you're a defender of Sumner as a lyricist, thematically they're on different planets; Stephen Morris utterly key to New Order's sound, the Cure have gone through several drummers and afaik there's nobody arguing that a drummer change resulted in a severe reset of their sound (I stand ready to be upbraided on this subject by DJP); the Cure are extremely curious stylistically whereas New Order pursue a refinement of their singular style their whole career, building on earlier work always -- where is New Order's "The Lovecats"? Where's their "Friday I'm in Love"? Which album is their "Disintegration"? This last point is the most important -- the Cure are restless, curious musicians with a big appetite for new looks. New Order are like Captain Ahab: they have this one thing they're looking for musically. Their read on it changes over time, and so their music changes and grows, too, but they're always Doing the New Order Thing. That's true of the Cure insofar as Robert Smith as a vocalist is too distinctive to be mistaken for anybody else, but not in any other way.

Rush is a prog band from Canada who are ridiculous and who fuckin rule. hope this clears everything up

William Dean Howells wrote novels on many subjects; range doesn't equal depth.

many xposts

I think what you mean is "I like New Order better than the Cure." There isn't any musical or thematic sense in which they compare.

where is New Order's "The Lovecats"?

I'm unsure what this means -- a charming chartbound confection?

Where's their "Friday I'm in Love"?

"Age of Consent," "True Faith," "Fine Time," "Bizarre Love Triangle"

Which album is their "Disintegration"?

PCL or Technique, the latter released the same year as the Cure's purported masterwork.

I'd say PCL because it has "Your Silent Face."

Surely it is a massive plus for New Order that they DON'T have a "Friday I'm in Love"

anyway it's Rock the Shack

The Lovecats is a stand-up bass playing a jazz baseline over a jazz beat with a horn chart accenting the proceedings. It came completely out of left field, following the The Walk, a synth-led, jittery lament which resembles "The Lovecats" about as closely as New Order resemble the Miles Davis Quintet. New Order, for all their glory, simply aren't capable of this kind of musical understanding -- of genre as accessory, of style as second-skin. New Order have never, at any point in their career, attempted any such stylistic shift. Whether the Cure pulled it off or not is a matter of taste (to me, they did, but I can see a case for "no way"), but this is only one example of their ability to shape-shift while retaining their identity. It's miraculous. New Order haven't got that in them; the most one can say is "they become increasing dependent on synths."

None of the (excellent) singles you cite are really like "Friday I'm in Love," I don't think - they're just good singles. "Friday I'm in Love" seeks, and finds, the mythic General Audience. It's shocking: this is the band whose idea of a dance-floor chorus, just a few years ago, was "I don't care if you don't / and I don't feel if you don't / and I don't want it if you don't / and I won't say it if you won't say it first"? It is, the very same band.

Disintegration's distinction isn't that it's great, it's that it's a big, immersive ocean of sound & mood. New Order aren't the kind of band who can do a Disintegration -- they write ten or twelve songs and they release them. It's wrong to say "they're a singles act," their albums are too good for that, but they don't have Let's Do This Big Thing like Disintegration in them. It is not in their nature.

they also don't have any bonkers stylistic detours like The Top in them, to say nothing of how wildly it succeeds. The two bands are completely unlike one another.

and, like, I really dig the Cure, and am probably a bigger New Order fan in the final analysis -- the benefit of their relentless focus is you get "Regret" after ten or fifteen years, there can only be one "Regret." But to say "New Order did the Cure better than the Cure" is just mystifyingly wrong.

Your posts are fair. I love both bands, NO more, in part because their commitment to the dance floor gives their blankness a queerness that the Cure couldn't approximate.

As far as pure pop, "Bizarre Love Triangle" and "Friday I'm in Love" are equally effective.

jclc relentlessly otm, even though i think the point being made was that the cure did new order better than new order

a bad point that's pointless to make

their commitment to the dance floor gives their blankness a queerness that the Cure couldn't approximate.

I think this is very true, and is an interesting thing about the Cure -- Smith wears makeup & does up his hair, but he's a straight man singing straight-man love songs. New Order are a bunch of straight Mancunians afaik but their cultural context is the dance floor, an incontestably queer space which they understand musically. They also learn, when they're very young, that the producer is the boss -- that really, "New Order" isn't a "band" so much as a production imperative. The Cure are Robert Smith's band. They are more in the 70s great-man mode. Sumner proves every time he sets pen to paper that he knows he doesn't really have any big ideas, that he's a worker in the service of an idea. Smith is an auteur at the end of the day, though a very generous one who understands group dynamics in music.

if y'all wanted to make Geddy Lee cry, mission accomplished

New Order and Rush are both bands I kind of want to like more than I actually do. I always enjoy it when I hear an individual song from one of these bands but have a hard time making it through an entire album.

I'm gonna strategically vote for Rush since I think ideally this poll should end in a tie.

New Order and the Cure are nothing alike, but ironically, "Friday I'm In Love" is one of the few Cure songs that actually sounds a little like New Order. That and "In Between Days" could pass in a pinch, vocalist aside. And coincidence or not, the Cure is one of those acts that in fact took a big leap (imo) with the addition of a new drummer and conspicuously dropped in quality when said drummer left. I agree that New Order is pretty generally incurious as musicians and writers. Their effortlessness (that is, nothing they've ever done has sounded like the product of much effort) is one of their greatest attributes. The Cure is essentially a psychedelic rock band, imo, which may explain why they're so often stumbling or steering into new sonic territory, but I get the impression they toil.

No accidents in Rush.

Sumner proves every time he sets pen to paper

too kind

Oh, and as for Smith the auteur, iirc the stylistic detours of KissMeX3 and a lot of the stuff on Disintegration came from him letting the others in on the songwriting process. Right?

New Order and Rush ... honestly, those are two bands where I still have no idea where the songs come from. A person? Jamming? Two (or more?) people putting their ideas together? I have no idea. Utterly inscrutable.

Let's give NO and Cure equal credit for the following: they're generous about songwriting credits, hence their invincibility into the 21st century. Members leave, but they don't quarrel over songwriting.

"Leave Me Alone" is one New Order song that I love and it does remind me of the Cure, musically. It probably hits just the right spot for me by providing those guitars without Robert Smith's histrionics.

i mean it's as accurate as, if i'm recalling correctly, "roxy music did everything on avalon that the blue nile tried and failed to do", i'd just let t share these kinds of takes and move on

― lowercase (eric), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:12 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Absolutely 100% accurate, then. Although, I'm talking about my comments on Avalon in their original form, which obviously I completely stand by, rather than the slight misquotation above.

I'm listening to A Farewell to Kings for the first time in years -- it's amazing how Rush is more New Orderlike insofar as I totally hear this as the band that will be making "Tom Sawyer" in 8 years or so, and yet, this does not resemble "Tom Sawyer" or "Limelight" -- it dawdles, it idles, it wanders -- it's like, they're still driving the same car, but whereas before they were doing day-drives in obscure hilly places, now they're going down a highway through big cities at night

that "cure did new order" thing really calls for a formal retraction or a very elaborate defense as the two bands' only similarities in any way are "they're from the 80s"

No it doesn't, no it doesn't and no, that isn't the case. Listen to the records.

thanks to jclc for awesome posts saying what I was too dumb/lazy expand on

as my final manic contribution of the morning here (if you believe that, real estate in Florida, etc) I want to say that Lifeson's interest in his guitar tone is as obsessive as Smith's & a TONE WAR poll would be great if we had more saddo tone-merchant guitar types on this board (saddo not meant as pejorative, I have spent more money on pedals than is befitting for a guy who mainly plays acoustic)

Rush and NO both '80s synth pioneers, in their own ways.

Lifeson's late 70s/early 80s lead playing is endlessly fascinating to me, real liquid and such interesting melodic ideas, almost like if Fripp decided to make music people enjoy

I don't think any classic rock 70s band did a better job of absorbing new wave and what was going on around them in better way, while staying so true to what they were....I mean so many acts through crappy synth horns on stuff, Rush came through with something as beautiful as Subdivisions

ironically, "Friday I'm In Love" is one of the few Cure songs that actually sounds a little like New Order. That and "In Between Days" could pass in a pinch, vocalist aside.

'In Between Days' is a really good example of many, actually. It's New Order's 'Dreams Never End' done properly, or doing New Order better than New Order, one could say.

you are such a little stinker

Also, 'The Lovecats' is an anomaly. Let's talk instead about how 'The Walk' is a better version of 'Blue Monday' ...

No.

I don't think any classic rock 70s band did a better job of absorbing new wave and what was going on around them in better way, while staying so true to what they were.

Genesis got really close on Duke and the incredible Invisible Touch, but yes overall Rush were better at it.

Turrican, I've liked you on many threads, often concluding that your detractors take you too seriously, but you're exhibiting your worst traits here. Insisting "no, it isn't" while a musician patiently explains similarities and differences is way too macho and aggro a stance for me. When several people with wildly different personalities tell me I have a problem, I don't know, I might look in the mirror.

Rush was better than most at borrowing from new wave. There were a lot of bands that aped the Police, but Rush incorporated elements of that band really well.

Rush in '82 and >> The Police

A lot of examples were cited of things that The Cure do which New Order couldn't do, which is OTM - there is no way that New Order have a Disintegration or 'The Lovecats' in them. That wasn't the point, though. The point was that when The Cure do New Order - which is more than most here would dare to admit - they do it better. Better lyrics, better singing, better playing, better production. I think it's pretty difficult to argue that, and I like New Order.

Like, New Order have a sound, but they're not even the best at it! I feel the same way about The Police vs. Rush, actually.

There were a lot of bands that aped the Police, but Rush incorporated elements of that band really well.

T/S Neil Peart vs. Stewart Copeland

I like how Rush is the secret catalyst for a New Order vs the Cure discussion

I enjoy Copeland's high tuned snare sound, particularly on Synchronicity, and rate him very highly as a drummer. I think Peart has the edge in terms of feel and technical skill, though. People like to talk about Peart's drumming in terms of cold, calculated technique, but there's a lot of feel in his drumming, a thing which people don't pay attention to because they're marvelling at the technique.

reading this thread from the top down, i got to this treeship post, and i'm just gonna stop there, because it's perfect:

i voted for new order but i wonder if i'd be happier if i was the kind of person who'd choose rush
― Trϵϵship, Monday, April 22, 2019 10:36 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I genuinely do not think the Cure "do new order" at all, ever. "The Walk" vs. "Blue Monday" is an interesting contrast for minor-key Oberheim-driven floor bangers of the 80s,I'll admit, but "Blue Monday" filled that floor -- the Cure was always more divisive, at least on the SoCal & PDX dance floors where I stepped to both songs when they were new. I mean we can disagree about this, that's fine, but I have in fact "listen[ed] to the records" -- they are not similar. The synth on "The Walk" sounds like something off a Goblin record. I'll own that these two share more space than most Cure & New Order tunes do, it does seem that Smith & Tolhurst were getting curious about what was up with dance 12"s & all that before they rediscovered acid, whereupon they do "The Top" -- a move New Order couldn't imagine in their most E-driven fantasies.

Turrican, I've liked you on many threads, often concluding that your detractors take you too seriously, but you're exhibiting your worst traits here.

How long before Alfred joins the ever growing legion of detractors? Poll maybe?

Let's talk instead about how 'The Walk' is a better version of 'Blue Monday' ...

It's a matter of taste, but if you don't have any knowledge of or appreciation for electronic music or dance music and are a boiled-beef-and-carrots rock fan then I can imagine holding this opinion.

To say that there are no similarities between 'The Walk' and 'Blue Monday' is a hell of a stretch!

Did anyone say there were no similarities?

How long before Tom D knocks off his obsession with me? 🤔

Did anyone say there were no similarities?

― Freddie Starr (Hitler in shorts) (Tom D.), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 3:01 PM (forty-five seconds ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink

They did, as it happens!

(xp) until you're banned again, I imagine.