Taking Sides: NEW ORDER VS RUSH?

new order is better in concept than reality
rush is better in reality than in concept

I can get with this. For sure, the *idea* of New Order is superior (to me) to the *idea* of Rush. But in practice/reality, I probably like Rush more.

Not sure what the idea of New Order is tbf.

fusing electronics with people playing? bridging punk and programmed dance music?

Emo Kraftwerk?

Either Rush, with Bernard Sumner on vocals, or New Order, with Geddy Lee on vocals.

three versatile virtuosos pretty much capable of anything

I sort of wonder about this, actually. Outside of that one EP of (kind of meh) 60s rock covers, I don't know how much evidence there is of them playing non-Rush music. I actually don't know how well Lifeson or Lee would acquit themselves if they had to e.g. do session gigging, jam on standards, play Bach at a wedding, etc. (Peart did study with a jazz drummer late in his career, interestingly.)

I said four years ago on Rush Vs. Led Zeppelin CHOPS ONLY Poll :

most traditional definitions of mastery and musicianship would seem to involve deep familiarity and competence with some sort of standard repertoire, whether common practice, jazz, folk, etc. Zeppelin clearly had this. While Rush are dazzlingly skilled in their way, their 'chops' seem very non-traditional: they are great at composing and playing Rush songs, whether that requires playing in Locrian mode in 5/4 or playing bass synth pedals and keyboards and singing at the same time or finding all sorts of ways to process guitar sounds. There is not much, though, to suggest that they have a very strong grounding in any idiom, even compared to the way that bands like Yes or ELP could jump between pastiches of English folk, Baroque, jazz, etc. Not only do they not improvise very much but I am also not sure that they could play from notated scores very effectively. As such, their 'chops' might seem somewhat 'modernist' in a way?

New Order, with Geddy Lee on vocals.

Maybe parts of Signals are as close as you could get to this?

new order is better in concept than reality

I guess no one in this thread dances.

Afaict most people itt are picking New Order.

I would definitely not call Rush "capable of anything," not after watching Peart attempt to swing during his drum solo on the 2011 tour.

Hah.

I file them under weirdos like Belew, clearly gifted but specialists.

I wonder to what extent the hyper-precise, locked-in nature of the arrangements that you described is a product of their limitations in that way. NB I actually think it's really cool that they came up with such a meticulous, idiosyncratic style, possibly as a result.

That's a really good question. I guess The other year we saw Geddy sitting in with Yes, that's no small potatoes. but the other guys don't really do that.

There's also the fact that all of Rush's stuff from 2112 to Power Windows is impeccably produced, whereas the production on prime New Order LP's ranges from OTM (Technique) to "needs more work" (selected tracks from Power, Corruption & Lies, Low-Life and Brotherhood) ...

Also, Geddy Lee's voice isn't for everyone but I never sit through a classic Rush track thinking "hmm, needs more autotune"

ALSO, there's also the fact that The Cure did New Order better than New Order.

Though not the electronic stuff, the Cure never really went that route.

I mentioned Belew, btw, because once I watched him getting interviewed, and the guy asking questions kept asking about his influences, and Belew mentioned someone like Hendrix. So the interviewer asked if Belew could demonstrate something he got from Hendrix, and it was like pulling teeth before Belew did a couple of seconds of a Hendrix-y sort of thing. Come to think of it, Fripp is another guitarist who I have only heard mention Hendrix as an influence, but I've never heard him play anything but Fripp-y stuff. Same with Eddie Van Halen.

i never sit through a classic new order track thinking it needs more autotune either, weird

Heh, I like the out of tune-ness of New Order, it's one of my favorite things about them.

If you can't hear Sumner's obvious intonation problems or at times painful vocal performances on their pre-'True Faith' material, perhaps you need to do the "double Van Gogh" or at least look into getting your ears syringed.

ALSO, there's also the fact that The Cure did New Order better than New Order.

Ludicrous.

Fwiw, the dodgy vocal performances don't prevent me from enjoying New Order, but would I enjoy New Order more if they'd had that element of their sound sorted out much earlier? Undoubtedly.

Again, Robert Smith's voice isn't for everyone, but he has a better command of pitch than Sumner and writes better lyrics. Better melody lines too, come to think of it.

Gallup also a superior bassist to Hook in that he has a greater range melodically.

Smith, Gallup, Sumner, Hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3C22ga-Z4

I think tom is a secret rush fan

And you're a secret Yes fan.

there are no secrets on this thread

If you can't hear Sumner's obvious intonation problems or at times painful vocal performances on their pre-'True Faith' material, perhaps you need to do the "double Van Gogh" or at least look into getting your ears syringed.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican),

Part of his/their charm. I love sharp objects!

Freddie Starr (Hitler in shorts) (Tom D.) at 2:47 22 Apr 19

ALSO, there's also the fact that The Cure did New Order better than New Order.

Ludicrous.


this is a weird opinion, like I think those bands are so different, other than being from the same era and having a lot of the same fans, I have never once thought they were alike in any way

like I could detail the many obvious ways but it feels like....I dunno, doing ALSO, there's the fact that The Pop Group did Durutti Column better than Durutti Column

i mean it's as accurate as, if i'm recalling correctly, "roxy music did everything on avalon that the blue nile tried and failed to do", i'd just let t share these kinds of takes and move on

This is obviously Rush for me, but I'm much less of a NO fan than most on here. I like a bunch of their singles and that's about it. OTOH, I'm a Rush super fan.

I do agree about their lack of versatility. Rush is extremely good at making Rush music, and made tons of great recordings for nearly 40 years, but they aren't particularly great when they get out of that comfort zone. Don't really think they needed to though.

Part of his/their charm. I love sharp objects!

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, April 23, 2019 4:18 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

that "cure did new order" thing really calls for a formal retraction or a very elaborate defense as the two bands' only similarities in any way are "they're from the 80s" -- bass tone not remotely similar; bass leads in new order (their real innovation), the cure is a guitar-centered band even though they do a lot of interesting things with that; Robert Smith can write a decent lyric, Sumner essentially does the old dadaist "cut up a newspaper article or a poem, drop the individual words into a bag, pull them out one by one and write them down in that order, the end result will be a poem about you" thing -- and in any case, even if you're a defender of Sumner as a lyricist, thematically they're on different planets; Stephen Morris utterly key to New Order's sound, the Cure have gone through several drummers and afaik there's nobody arguing that a drummer change resulted in a severe reset of their sound (I stand ready to be upbraided on this subject by DJP); the Cure are extremely curious stylistically whereas New Order pursue a refinement of their singular style their whole career, building on earlier work always -- where is New Order's "The Lovecats"? Where's their "Friday I'm in Love"? Which album is their "Disintegration"? This last point is the most important -- the Cure are restless, curious musicians with a big appetite for new looks. New Order are like Captain Ahab: they have this one thing they're looking for musically. Their read on it changes over time, and so their music changes and grows, too, but they're always Doing the New Order Thing. That's true of the Cure insofar as Robert Smith as a vocalist is too distinctive to be mistaken for anybody else, but not in any other way.

Rush is a prog band from Canada who are ridiculous and who fuckin rule. hope this clears everything up

William Dean Howells wrote novels on many subjects; range doesn't equal depth.

many xposts

I think what you mean is "I like New Order better than the Cure." There isn't any musical or thematic sense in which they compare.

where is New Order's "The Lovecats"?

I'm unsure what this means -- a charming chartbound confection?

Where's their "Friday I'm in Love"?

"Age of Consent," "True Faith," "Fine Time," "Bizarre Love Triangle"

Which album is their "Disintegration"?

PCL or Technique, the latter released the same year as the Cure's purported masterwork.

I'd say PCL because it has "Your Silent Face."

Surely it is a massive plus for New Order that they DON'T have a "Friday I'm in Love"

anyway it's Rock the Shack

The Lovecats is a stand-up bass playing a jazz baseline over a jazz beat with a horn chart accenting the proceedings. It came completely out of left field, following the The Walk, a synth-led, jittery lament which resembles "The Lovecats" about as closely as New Order resemble the Miles Davis Quintet. New Order, for all their glory, simply aren't capable of this kind of musical understanding -- of genre as accessory, of style as second-skin. New Order have never, at any point in their career, attempted any such stylistic shift. Whether the Cure pulled it off or not is a matter of taste (to me, they did, but I can see a case for "no way"), but this is only one example of their ability to shape-shift while retaining their identity. It's miraculous. New Order haven't got that in them; the most one can say is "they become increasing dependent on synths."

None of the (excellent) singles you cite are really like "Friday I'm in Love," I don't think - they're just good singles. "Friday I'm in Love" seeks, and finds, the mythic General Audience. It's shocking: this is the band whose idea of a dance-floor chorus, just a few years ago, was "I don't care if you don't / and I don't feel if you don't / and I don't want it if you don't / and I won't say it if you won't say it first"? It is, the very same band.

Disintegration's distinction isn't that it's great, it's that it's a big, immersive ocean of sound & mood. New Order aren't the kind of band who can do a Disintegration -- they write ten or twelve songs and they release them. It's wrong to say "they're a singles act," their albums are too good for that, but they don't have Let's Do This Big Thing like Disintegration in them. It is not in their nature.

they also don't have any bonkers stylistic detours like The Top in them, to say nothing of how wildly it succeeds. The two bands are completely unlike one another.

and, like, I really dig the Cure, and am probably a bigger New Order fan in the final analysis -- the benefit of their relentless focus is you get "Regret" after ten or fifteen years, there can only be one "Regret." But to say "New Order did the Cure better than the Cure" is just mystifyingly wrong.

Your posts are fair. I love both bands, NO more, in part because their commitment to the dance floor gives their blankness a queerness that the Cure couldn't approximate.

As far as pure pop, "Bizarre Love Triangle" and "Friday I'm in Love" are equally effective.

jclc relentlessly otm, even though i think the point being made was that the cure did new order better than new order

a bad point that's pointless to make

their commitment to the dance floor gives their blankness a queerness that the Cure couldn't approximate.

I think this is very true, and is an interesting thing about the Cure -- Smith wears makeup & does up his hair, but he's a straight man singing straight-man love songs. New Order are a bunch of straight Mancunians afaik but their cultural context is the dance floor, an incontestably queer space which they understand musically. They also learn, when they're very young, that the producer is the boss -- that really, "New Order" isn't a "band" so much as a production imperative. The Cure are Robert Smith's band. They are more in the 70s great-man mode. Sumner proves every time he sets pen to paper that he knows he doesn't really have any big ideas, that he's a worker in the service of an idea. Smith is an auteur at the end of the day, though a very generous one who understands group dynamics in music.

if y'all wanted to make Geddy Lee cry, mission accomplished

New Order and Rush are both bands I kind of want to like more than I actually do. I always enjoy it when I hear an individual song from one of these bands but have a hard time making it through an entire album.

I'm gonna strategically vote for Rush since I think ideally this poll should end in a tie.

New Order and the Cure are nothing alike, but ironically, "Friday I'm In Love" is one of the few Cure songs that actually sounds a little like New Order. That and "In Between Days" could pass in a pinch, vocalist aside. And coincidence or not, the Cure is one of those acts that in fact took a big leap (imo) with the addition of a new drummer and conspicuously dropped in quality when said drummer left. I agree that New Order is pretty generally incurious as musicians and writers. Their effortlessness (that is, nothing they've ever done has sounded like the product of much effort) is one of their greatest attributes. The Cure is essentially a psychedelic rock band, imo, which may explain why they're so often stumbling or steering into new sonic territory, but I get the impression they toil.

No accidents in Rush.

Sumner proves every time he sets pen to paper

too kind

Oh, and as for Smith the auteur, iirc the stylistic detours of KissMeX3 and a lot of the stuff on Disintegration came from him letting the others in on the songwriting process. Right?

New Order and Rush ... honestly, those are two bands where I still have no idea where the songs come from. A person? Jamming? Two (or more?) people putting their ideas together? I have no idea. Utterly inscrutable.

Let's give NO and Cure equal credit for the following: they're generous about songwriting credits, hence their invincibility into the 21st century. Members leave, but they don't quarrel over songwriting.

"Leave Me Alone" is one New Order song that I love and it does remind me of the Cure, musically. It probably hits just the right spot for me by providing those guitars without Robert Smith's histrionics.

B-but...

http://www.rushoddities.com/rush-oddities/images/geddy-alex-tennis-73-full.jpg

bands in shorts poll imminent, a certain ratio's gonna win though

I expect no less from a bunch of Canadian goofballs. New Order in shorts is more of a scandal.

70/80s was an era of rampant short shorts wearing