17 Indie Artists on Their Oddest Odd Jobs That Pay the Bills When Music Doesn’t (not a poll)

I used to not quite get why he bugged ppl so much — then I “snapped” and lost my cool recently, so now I just ignore him.

17 Indie Artists on Their Oddest Odd Jobs That Pay the Bills When Music Doesn’t (yet another poll about noted ILM user Turrican)

trying to decide which of these tedious topics are the worst: production cost of "classic" albums, the importance and quality of "classic albums," Turrican's posting

so, for all the other countries where musicians get government money for being musicians, are there rules and/or a process whereby one gets to call themselves a musician?

There'd be no problen with Turrican if he could handle the fact that people might not agree with everything he says and that they are going to pull him up on things he gets wrong - and if he dropped the obnoxious attitude when they do.

he has a really obnoxious way of expressing himself, however, i must be the problem

― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, April 15, 2019 3:05 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink

While we're on the subject of expressing oneself obnoxiously, it's worth pointing out this point that only one of the two of us has called the other a "shithead" or "huge dumbass" over the last few months, and it certainly wasn't me to you.

There'd be no problen with Turrican if he could handle the fact that people might not agree with everything he says and that they are going to pull him up on things he gets wrong - and if he dropped the obnoxious attitude when they do.

― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.),Monday, April 15, 2019 3:30 PM (twenty-five seconds ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

In the case of this particular thread - and others - I'd say it was the other way 'round.

trying to decide which of these tedious topics are the worst: production cost of "classic" albums, the importance and quality of "classic albums," Turrican's posting

The first two seem like reasonable topics for a music message board imo?

I tend to agree with fgti/pomenitul that, while I disagree with some of Turrican's opinions itt, and think some of what he's saying is wrong, he doesn't really deserve to be piled on.

All I’m reading is divergent opinions being discussed, interrupted by people being shitty to Turrican for having different opinions

― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, April 15, 2019 3:01 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, this is pretty much OTM, really. Also, my patience only runs so far so when people are being shitty to me for this reason, they shouldn't then find themselves surprised when I eventually snap and be shitty back. Of course, naturally I'd rather not do this and would rather stay on topic, but here we are!

Thanks Sund4r :)

Have you never wondered why otherwise mild mannered posters get into shouting matches with the guy?

I've no idea who you're referring to there, but if that's the case then perhaps they're not actually that mild-mannered.

And can we get back on topic?

While we're on the subject of expressing oneself obnoxiously, it's worth pointing out this point that only one of the two of us has called the other a "shithead" or "huge dumbass" over the last few months, and it certainly wasn't me to you.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, April 15, 2019 8:30 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all right, i'm out, enjoy turrican everyone

Maybe not, but then I don't see them butting heads with too many other people. (xxp)

so, for all the other countries where musicians get government money for being musicians, are there rules and/or a process whereby one gets to call themselves a musician?

At least in Canada, you submit applications for grants for projects and a committee decides whether you get the grant. (You can apply to get your living costs covered at a subsistence level while you are working on these projects.) I think this happens in the US too, just less often. Idk if there are countries where you can get paid just for calling yourself a musician.

The first two seem like reasonable topics for a music message board imo?

reasonable, yes. Boring and discussed to death in countless other threads, also yes.

you submit applications for grants for projects and a committee decides whether you get the grant. (You can apply to get your living costs covered at a subsistence level while you are working on these projects.) I think this happens in the US too, just less often

this does happen in the US, at federal, state, and local levels. ... i used to write grants for a living.

It is a well-known fact that every music forum eventually turns into Steve Hoffman.

Permaban ILM.

I'd be really interested in finding out how US granting systems work... I kind of just assumed there weren't any? beyond grants for institutions? In Canada there are several different bodies, both regional and national, that assist for different things. It's not quite as generous as it was 2000-2010 but most musicians I know depend upon it. Certain bodies are about supporting emerging artists/under-privileged artists, and other bodies are about stimulating a music-oriented economy-- Starmaker in particular is geared toward stimulating artists who've already got their fanbase and so on, to try and take a band at Alvvays's level and get them up to Metric's level or what-have-you

I was listening to Weyes Blood this morning and that's a very classic sounding album! I don't think it's a classic album by any means but it sounds amazing, regardless of how much it cost to make

xp I didn't say creating art is a waste?

I'm only speaking for people who expect some form of return on the investments I listed, in hopes that their hard work will reach people outside of their immediate network.

Creating for self-satisfaction or for the journey and experience of creation is its own separate reward. I should have clarified I wasn't referring to that.

Frankly surprised that the "lesser" cities of the Midwest aren't more sought-out as "liveable places for musicians". Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis and Iowa City all seem like lovely places!!

I'm curious if you mean as a home base for someone who already has a recording/touring career, or as a place to actively make a living?

Madison is getting increasingly expensive unfortunately, but Milwaukee can still be very cheap. I do know musicians who only do music here and in Minneapolis, but it's a constant hustle of course (and everyone has some combination of teaching/gigging/touring and recording revenue in some rare cases).

Milwaukee is gorgeous. I don't know anything about music scenes in those cities, I have a friend who lives and works in Madison and I've read that Iowa City has a good noise scene

Currently in Canada, Toronto is just becoming entirely unliveable from a rent-to-income perspective and musicians are deserting in droves. Montreal remains the best option for musicians, but you can't really work there unless you have perfect Quebecois French. Lots of small towns 1- to 2-hours outside of Toronto are becoming popular places to move to-- Hamilton especially. I found a tenable living situation in Toronto but if I'll likely be leaving the city in five years or so for like Paris (Ontario) or Bancroft or something like that

perfect Quebecois French

Eh, I wouldn't say 'perfect'. Nor 'Quebecois' for that matter… But yeah, you need to be able to get by in French if you want a decent job in Montreal.

In Madison there's been an unexpected upswing in jazz & DIY venues, which is nice, because it was bleak for awhile. It's still pretty bleak for rap/dance/most other scenes imo. Milwaukee has a lot more going on for rap/dance/indie, but it's not exactly a wonderland.

I think the midwestern winter is a real deterrent to more artists moving/staying here.

didn't expect to see a bancroft, ontario reference itt.

i was there once a couple of winters back, my ex's cousin was a school teacher there.

I’m sorry that people don’t find discussion of how music is made interesting. Please enjoy this video of people brawling to a self playing piano, which reminded me of this thread in at least four ways

Aye so my mom witnessed a fight at Costco today... commotion was crazy... but I’m dying at this self-playing piano scoring the whole moment 😂😂😂😂😂 pic.twitter.com/LYNGWBAqEQ

— Allen Golden Jr. (@allengoldenjr) April 14, 2019

LOL, where is that?

Impartial observation from a guy who occasionally reads ILM but very seldom posts: I have no idea of the back-story here but I've enjoyed Turrican's posts ITT, even where I don't wholeheartedly agree.

The snarky criticisms seem weirdly misplaced (and a real bore to scroll through).

yeah i don't agree with falsehoods often as well.

scroll through my ass, lurker

don't do it lurker

I like that this thread has circled back to the player piano

I witnessed a brawl on ILX today, scored by a self-playing piano..

Regarding the odd present of the player piano:

I was curious a while back if Yamaha still had the self-playing (or guided playing) stuff in their newer keyboards that they were touting circa the early 1990s

It turns out they have exclusive concert experiences — you can have a live or prerecorded concert playing on video, and the piano part being played comes from your keyboard, which is being played at a spooky distance by the artist.

I’m morbidly curious about who actually pays for this outside of music stores hawking Yamaha product

i was watching The Great Egg Race the other day and one of their episodes was an automatic piano. he demonstrated it using a modern* piano that ran off data written on a standard cassette.

* modern for 1985

I'd be really interested in finding out how US granting systems work... I kind of just assumed there weren't any? beyond grants for institutions?

Like a lot of American things, a significant amount of arts granting is done by the private sector: mostly private foundations and some public community foundations. When it comes to government granting, this happens at the national, state, and local levels -- the latter two often end up working as incentives for artists to remain or come or leave certain areas.

Federal grants go through the NEA - National Endowment for the Arts (there is some that go through other departments like the NEH -- National Endowment for the Humanities, or other agencies to create "innovative" programs -- I think there is one arts grant program that gets funding from HUD -- Housing & Urban Development?). The vast majority of NEA money goes to organizations and institutions now -- after the brouhaha with the "NEA 4" -- but a lot of the grants are project based and are for individual artists working with organizations with a significant amount of the money being earmarked for artist fees. There are also contractual ways of funding an individual artist project through an organization, with the organization acting in a way like the "guarantor" of the artist.

At the state level, New York is one of the most generous states. At one point, California cut almost all of its state arts granting, but in the last 5-10 years has increased and expanded its arts grants, and definitely is marketing the fuck out of that fact. California does most of its arts funding through a bunch of different programs, and they change from year to year. I'm definitely showing my stripes as a "coastal elite" by not knowing much of anything about the generosity/funding of Southern and Midwestern states ... I'm definitely not implying that California and NY are the only games in town.

There's also local level government funding -- another reason for artists to live in cities. I can rant extensively about how this impacts local arts ecology/economies in terms of "rich city/poor city" issues, where the rich city gives the bigger grants, so the artists present their work in the rich city, and meet residency criteria often on technicalities, but because the rich city is rich, they move to the poor city, which does not have the money to do such generous granting ... anyway ...

Self-playing/midi acoustic pianos rule, it's how Drukqs was made

The Kyle Gann album too

Seth Horvitz's "Eight Studies for Automatic Piano" too

thanks to everyone helping to contribute to my thread tangent I pushed to get away from a more irritating thread tangent

on the good on-topic material: good post, sarahell!

^ Agreed!

Yes that was very informative, thank you!

Are there any examples of American bands paying for recording or other costs with grants?

There are several organizations - the Robert Bielecki Foundation and Giant Step Arts, among others - that give jazz artists money specifically to make albums. (Giant Step also pays for manufacturing.)

it's been a while since I read the original piece, so sorry if this has been mentioned, but one common side stream of income I hear about is wedding and/or corporate gigs

IME musicians who get grants seem to be more aligned with experimental or otherwise artworld adjacent music scenes. Feel like stateside it’s more normal for visual artists to get grants

one common side stream of income I hear about is wedding and/or corporate gigs

Almost as odd as teaching music

Weddings did wonders for Omar Souleyman.

Jazz is an institutionalized form though.

Also most of the musicians I know who play wedding gigs and teach lessons are jazz musicians (because they can read, play any style, etc).