17 Indie Artists on Their Oddest Odd Jobs That Pay the Bills When Music Doesn’t (not a poll)

This is a shitty thing to say, but maybe musicians don’t deserve to make a living. Maybe it should be a hobby. But if that’s true, I don’t want to see some talentless pop stars making what they make, while quality living museums of folk-music knowledge get paid nothing. That’s not cool. But I’m not the one to decide. It’s good for people to know that, when they come out to see a show, these people are putting their whole life on the line to give their heart and soul. It means something more than money.”

But it's not like this is a new thing unique to this streaming era. Let's be real: "quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" have been broke since the invention of music, in the recording era there were a few who broke the rule and made bank but for every huge singer/songwriter that didn't need to worry about rent like say, Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens or Paul Simon there were thousands of musicians like say Jackson C. Frank, Ed Askew or Nick Drake that were on the other side of the dime.

It's not that musicians don't deserve to make a living, it's just that there's way too many of them and not everyone gets to be a star. You'll find this trend in virtually every entertainment branch since the beginning of time and I've never understood the attitude of acting all bitter and blame it on these damn kids and their pop interests.

"Quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" do exist right now, except they are Club Mate-soused computer geeks who churn out hits for "talentless" pop stars, and are "museums" of the modern folk-music canon-- i.e., the pop charts.

Cass is himself an instrumentalist and he is lamenting a perceived economic decline of instrumental music, and rightfully so: he's the best songwriter, everybody knows it, and cherishes his albums, and yet still he underperforms at the ticket wicket, and it's a mystery as to why this is the case

Lol can you imagine if back in 2004 or whatever, Cass McCombs started making the same decisions that M.Ward has been making for the past 15 years? And vice versa? Wow that'd be really interesting. Cass sells out and forms a chart-topping kinda-twee duo with like Michelle Williams and M.Ward keeps on chugging out various versions of Vincent and wondering in thinkpieces why people don't respect the folk canon? I don't own a single M.Ward or She & Him album but that dude surely owns property by now

I should clarify, I really love Vincent and could probably sing every word of that album. I do like M. Ward and I'm glad he did good

This is all, btw, weirdly kind of apropos, since a couple of weeks ago in New York I had dinner with a musician friend of mine who was lamenting the state of things (for non-financial reasons, tbf). But I asked him, figuring he would know, if he knew many indie people making a living from making music, and iirc the person he eventually came up with was ... Cass McCombs. He didn't say he was making *tons* of cash, and he still had to tour all the time, but my friend said said he apparently did make enough to at least pay his band OK, and while I don't know if *they* are necessarily making a particularly good living, it ... beats working?

We did talk about a couple of other bands we knew, and their biggest issue was getting older, having families etc., and generally being unable to keep up whatever momentum they once had, at least not enough to attract new (which is to say, younger) fans who could replace their peers, who were going through similar stages of getting older, hailing families and not going to shows or buying music as much.

I honestly don't know if there are necessarily any fewer bands able to sell out relatively big clubs or venues than there were one the getting was good (if it ever was), but the paradox is that you have to keep touring non-stop while simultaneously working on new stuff. Which is a pretty tricky position to be in. But yeah, at least when it comes to performance, there doesn't seem to be a particular dearth of acts able to sell out shows, at least in this city.

I kind of wish that article was about some acts I actually recognized. Like, I dunno, a band like Best Coast. They haven't put out an album in three or four years, and while modestly popular they weren't huge or anything. What has she been doing in the meantime? Was she successful enough not to need a day job?

I like Best Coast - Bethany Cosentino

wonder what they're up to

It’s like this

Bands that exist within public consciousness— like Best Coast— can and will pull in 20-30k a year, passively. It’s like a zeitgeist thing? A playlist thing? Best Coast had SONGS and they’re still being played and licensed and the shit they’ve been sync’d for is still being syndicated. She’s ok.

Cass doesn’t have that. I don’t have that— my passive income is in film scores. Basically if you can make hay in “music industry” for a couple years you might be able to surf the aftermath. You know who I’m always wondering about? Marnie Stern. How is her income?

Cass’s “problem” if you could call it that is that he seems to have ingrained “don’t sell out” architecture and it appeals to me (I paid for that shit on vinyl) but until he licenses “The Executioner’s Song” to Grey’s Anatomy he will continue to sell half as many tickets as he should

<3 <3 ftgi, I hope you will have every success, your music is amazing, it's been a part of my life and of the lives of people I love

*fgti*

Xpost: isn’t Marnie Stern part of a late night show band? I remember seeing her like 4 years ago.

Yeah just checked, apparently she’s been on the Seth Meyer’s 8G band since 2013 so I guess playing music does pay for her bills.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_8G_Band

This is all, btw, weirdly kind of apropos, since a couple of weeks ago in New York I had dinner with a musician friend of mine who was lamenting the state of things (for non-financial reasons, tbf). But I asked him, figuring he would know, if he knew many indie people making a living from making music, and iirc the person he eventually came up with was ... Cass McCombs. He didn't say he was making *tons* of cash, and he still had to tour all the time, but my friend said said he apparently did make enough to at least pay his band OK, and while I don't know if *they* are necessarily making a particularly good living, it ... beats working?

Musicians having to tour - oh, the humanity! Surely Ms. McCombs would be all in favour of touring, toiling at the coalface, getting his hands dirty, unlike a pampered talentless pop star? Apparently Cass McCombs is 41, I wonder what Edgar Broughton was doing when he was 41, or the bass player from Piblokto or whoever, I wonder how they were making ends meet.

player piano music is a really weird artefact not replicated in history (as far as the top of my head is offering now):

not on the consumer side but it's the basic principle behind MIDI

ha ha yes but player piano was almost entirely a consumer medium (bcz the rigged-up western-movie saloon bar pianos that played themselves, vs ppl gathering around & singing while one person worked the pedals, was even more expensive?)

the idealistic principle of the piano operator working the pedals while playing basic bass counterpoints,or melodic embellishments, over the top is SO close to shitty members’ club or corporate-dinner duos with one midi-kbd player dude and a singer in a cocktail dress though, 💗 the comparison

Didn't they used to pirate player piano rolls?

Apparently there was a big law suit because the player piano people didn't pay anything for the music. The rolls were deemed a mechanical device, not a copy as such.

But I had in mind people punching their own rolls, copies of an original.

music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sad

also music writers: this album sucks 3.1/10 better luck next time lol

— Dent May (@dentmay) April 9, 2019

talking of timeless standards

Gaddis to thread

Musicians deserve to make a living in that they are a subset of “everyone” obv

more like

music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sad

also music writers: please enjoy another 5000 word thinkpiece about Carly Rae Jepsen

do the teens of today know what "file sharing" is? do they use "bittorrents"? are there any teens on this board?

I actually do wonder about that - whether there's be actual cash-money benefit to musicians whose records don't sell much if they got more of the ink/bits that the big-ticket names get - if the notion of "importance" hadn't reached a point of being strictly correlated with success (or, very occasionally, "influence") - ultimately I don't think it's reasonable to say "musicians are poor because critics don't write about them," but I think the way the money gets spread around is not unrelated to whose stuff is seen as "counting"

xp to Paul P

are there any teens on this board?

youngest person still posting turned 56 last month iirc

music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sad

also music writers: please enjoy another 5000 word thinkpiece about Carly Rae Jepsen

name them

Thread would have been much better if it had actually just been a poll of the jobs, tbh

The Magic Band were living on a cup of lentils a day when they were working on "Trout Mask Replica" but that's apropos of nothing as this thread is a nostalgiac look back to the days when Razorlight were given half a million and six months to hone their important second album.

name them

How much do you pay per word?

name them

― blokes you can't rust (sic)

buckle up old friend

https://medium.com/@embirdened/everything-critical-on-carly-rae-jepsen-5b0f13b6be62
https://www.theverge.com/2015/8/18/9173525/carly-rae-jepsen-emotion-album
https://newrepublic.com/article/136360/case-carly-rae-jepsen
https://themuse.jezebel.com/this-is-why-carly-rae-jepsen-isnt-more-famous-1826070349
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/05/646424840/carly-rae-jepsen-is-the-21st-centurys-queen-of-a-million-kingdoms
https://www.theawl.com/2015/08/notes-on-21st-century-mystic-carly-rae-jepsen/

ouch, I bet that hurts, sic

but for every huge singer/songwriter that didn't need to worry about rent like say, Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens or Paul Simon there were thousands of musicians like say Jackson C. Frank, Ed Askew or Nick Drake that were on the other side of the dime.

And yet I have a difficult time imagining any of those people bagging my groceries at Trader Joe’s.

I don’t play music but I have many friends that do, and I don’t think any of them are under any allusions about being rock stars or about “making it.” I think they’d merely like to be spared the indignity of requiring a side hustle. The artists you name, afaik, had contracts, were paid advances, generally sustained themselves as musicians. Jackson C Frank wrote for other artists; Nick Drake made three records for a major label. Ed Askew is maybe the odd man out here (and ESP were obviously notorious for ripping off artists) but even he was probably paid more per show than whoever is opening for Lambchop or the Mountain Goats right now

NPR is the only link there that qualifies as music press though? but even if they were, what is this meant to prove? That "music writers" are ignoring indie musicians in favor of [whatever category CJR falls into] and thereby consigning indie musicians to poverty?

fwiw, in Ponzi's remixed meme, the first party is Pitchfork but afaict they have never written a 5000-word thinkpiece about Jepsen

Credits per the liner notes of Emotion.

Music:
Noonie Bao – backing vocals (track 1)
CJ Baran – all instruments (tracks 2, 9, 17)
Rostam Batmanglij – keyboards, piano (track 11)
Ajay Bhattacharyya – synths (track 10)
Peter Carlsson – solina (track 3)
Samuel Dixon – electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar, synths (track 7)
Carl Falk – instruments, guitars (track 8)
Ethan Farmer – bass (tracks 5, 12)
Wojtek Goral – saxophone (track 1)
Oscar Görres – backing vocals (track 1)
Zachary Gray – bass, synths (track 10)
Jeff Halatrax – drums, synths, keyboards, bass (track 3)
Svante Halldin – violin (track 4)
Oscar Holter – backing vocals (track 1)
Devonté Hynes – guitars (track 5)
Wouter Janssen – all instruments (track 14)
Carly Rae Jepsen – lead vocals (all tracks); backing vocals (track 1)
Jakob Jerlström – backing vocals (track 1)
Tommy King – keyboards (track 12)
Daniel Farrugia - keyboards, piano (track 5)
Greg Kurstin – bass, drums, guitar, keyboards (track 6)
Katerina Loules – backing vocals (track 14)
Lukas "Lulou" Loules – all instruments (track 14)
Roger Manning, Jr. – synthesizers (track 5)
Mattman & Robin – backing vocals, bass, drums, percussion (tracks 1, 4, 15); guitars (tracks 1, 4); vocoder, synths (track 15)
Missy Modell – backing vocals (track 3)
Daniel Nigro – guitar (track 12)
Emre Ramazanoglu – synths, percussion, drums (track 7)
Rami – instruments, bass (track 8)
Ariel Rechtshaid – synthesizers, percussion (track 5)
Sibel Redžep – backing vocals (track 1)
Ben Romans – all instruments (tracks 2, 9)
Ludvig Söderberg – backing vocals (track 1)
Marlene Strand – backing vocals (track 8)
Peter Svensson – drums, synths, keyboards, bass, guitar (track 3)
Greg Wells – drums, synths (track 13)
Production:
Henrique Andrade – engineering assistance (track 7)
CJ Baran – production, programming (tracks 2, 9, 17)
Rostam Batmanglij – production, engineering, drum and synth programming (track 11)
Ajay Bhattacharyya – production, recording, drum programming (track 10)
Mikaelin 'Blue' Bluespruce – recording (track 5)
Mario Borgatta – mixing assistance (track 10)
Julian Burg – engineering (track 6)
Martin Cooke – engineering assistance (track 10)
Rich Costey – mixing (track 10)
Tom Coyne – mastering (tracks 1–4, 8)
John DeBold – engineering assistance (tracks 5, 12)
Samuel Dixon – programming (track 7)
Micky Evelyn – engineering assistance (track 5)
Eric Eylands – engineering assistance (track 3)
Carl Falk – production, programming (track 8)
Nicholas Fournier – engineering assistance (track 10)
Kyle Gaffney – engineering assistance (track 14)
Chris Galland – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)
Serban Ghenea – mixing (tracks 1–4, 8)
Zachary Gray – production, recording (track 10)
Gene Grimaldi – mastering (tracks 6–7, 9–17)
Josh Gudwin – vocal production, vocal recording (track 7)
Jeff Halatrax – production, engineering, programming (track 3)
John Hanes – mix engineering (tracks 1–4, 8)
The High Street – production (track 7)
Devonté Hynes – production, programming (track 5)
Chris Kasych – engineering (tracks 11–12)
Greg Kurstin – production, engineering (track 6)
Lukas "Lulou" Loules – production, engineering, mixing (track 14)
Eric Madrid – mixing (tracks 7, 13, 15)
Manny Marroquin – mixing (tracks 6, 12)
Mattman & Robin – production (tracks 1, 4, 15); programming (tracks 1, 15)
Mitch McCarthy – mixing (tracks 16–17)
Scott Moore – engineering (track 4)
Daniel Nigro – additional production, programming (track 12)
Robert Orton – mixing (tracks 5, 11)
Alex Pasco – engineering (track 6)
Noah Passovoy – additional vocal recording (track 15)
Emre Ramazanoglu – programming (track 7)
Rami – production, programming (track 8)
Ariel Rechtshaid – production, programming (tracks 5, 12); recording (track 5); engineering, drum programming (track 12)
Ben Romans – production, programming (tracks 2, 9)
Will Sandalls – engineering (track 16)
Matt Schaeffer – engineering assistance (tracks 14, 16)
Ike Schultz – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)
Wesley Seidman – recording (track 5)
Kyle Shearer – production (track 16)
Shellback – production (track 1)
Laura Sisk – additional engineering (track 12)
Stint – production (track 10)
Shane Stoneback – engineering (track 11)
Peter Svensson – production, engineering, programming (track 3)
Juan Carlos Torrado – engineering assistance (tracks 3, 17)
Randy Urbanski – engineering (track 4)
Jaime Velez – engineering assistance (track 3)
Robert Vosgien – mastering (track 5)
Vincent Vu – mixing assistance (tracks 7, 13, 15)
Greg Wells – production, programming (track 13)
Wired Masters – mastering (track 14)
Business:
Scott "Scooter" Braun – executive production, A&R, management
Greg Carr – marketing coordination
Lisa DiAngelo – publicity
John Ehmann – A&R
David Gray – A&R
Pamela Gurley – legal representation
Brad Haugen – marketing, creative direction
Laura Hess – management, marketing
Dyana Kass – marketing
Allison Kaye – management
Steve Kopec – management
Evan Lamberg – A&R
Kenny Meiselas – legal representation
Katherine Neiss – A&R coordination
Olivia Zaro – A&R
Packaging:
Jessica Severn – art direction and design
Karla Welch – styling
Matthew Welch – photography

This is not including her touring crew for the album, so if you think about it, CRJ is making way more musicians and music-related employees make ends meet and pay rent than any of those indie musicians.

It's not that musicians don't deserve to make a living, it's just that there's way too many of them and not everyone gets to be a star. You'll find this trend in virtually every entertainment branch since the beginning of time and I've never understood the attitude of acting all bitter and blame it on these damn kids and their pop interests.

Or capitalism, for that matter. If anything, the exponential swell of recorded music in the internet era has not been accompanied by an analogous increase in audience. There's a human limit to the amount of acts one can follow, even within a given sub-genre, even for crazed obsessives who revel in the glut such as ourselves. This is equally true for other art forms, which in some sense means that the notion of 'audience' is simultaneously more and less precious than ever. Most of today's artworks exist in a quasi vacuum, and it's not going to change any time soon. Much is and will be consigned to oblivion even prior to its inception, regardless of quality (there's no such thing as a bottomless archive).

This is not including her touring crew for the album, so if you think about it, CRJ is making way more musicians and music-related employees make ends meet and pay rent than any of those indie musicians.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:45 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, because otherwise the "artists" that make up that legal department and four people handing "management" would surely be destitute

The Magic Band were living on a cup of lentils a day when they were working on "Trout Mask Replica" but that's apropos of nothing

I think this was more a manipulative cult leader head-trip tactic on the part of the good Captain than an actual economic reality but if it prevented them becoming Razorlight it was worth it

Sometimes I think about Freedy Johnston selling that farm to feed the band...that land would be worth so much money now

as a carly rae jepsen thinkpiece writer who somehow also manages to write about indie musicians struggling to make ends meet, i fucking hate this conversation

Maybe somebody could organize a benefit project for struggling pop musicians, call it "Band Aid" or something

irl lol

How many Christmases have bands missed because they were on the road? Did they even know?

Tonight thank god it's them instead of U2

U2 should give out grants, otherwise the next Pete Yorn could fall through the cracks.

I think this was more a manipulative cult leader head-trip tactic on the part of the good Captain than an actual economic reality but if it prevented them becoming Razorlight it was worth it

Possibly, though Beefheart himsekf was still relying on food parcels from his granny!

Making a living in the sense we are discussing is also related to the lack of affordable housing in big cities.

u2 should pay their taxes moreike

ouch, I bet that hurts, sic

where is Jia Tolentino’s piece about indie musicians struggling to make money, and when did she quit writing about Trump committing sexual assault and about youth vaping and Brett Kavanaugh and Miss America and novels and abortion law?

where is Ryan Bird’s piece about indie musicians struggling to make money, and where does he get paid to write about music?

I only checked the first and last btw, perhaps all the other pieces contained links to paid writers’ sad thoughts about indie musicians

Credits per the liner notes of Emotion.

two different people are credited with "all instruments" for track 14... seems fishy to me... CRJ needs to tighten up her oversight of the payroll.

carly rae jepsen is a tax-avoidance scheme CONFIRMED

I think some of capitalism's best work is ruthlessly exploiting middle class indie kids and making them miserable!