17 Indie Artists on Their Oddest Odd Jobs That Pay the Bills When Music Doesn’t (not a poll)

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none of them are strippers / sex workers -- that was way more common in the 90s

even if ppl would have publicly declared this, FOSTA/SESTA? also indie strip clubs are dead in Seattle and decimated in SF compared to the '90s aiui

$7000 or $8000; not enough to be rich obviously, but would seem to support some kind of middle class lifestyle when combined with other revenue streams that come from being a musician (merchandise/physical record sales, syncs, money from touring if any)

the $6,252/mo is not Cass McCombs the individual's income, it's the rights holder's gross. A quick squiz at Discogs suggests he only owns the publishing outright on one, maybe two of those nine records (so $625/mo if all the 1.2 million streams came from that one album), and the masters on none. with a four-piece backing band he'ss paying at least six people's wages on the road, plus all tour expenses, before he sees any touring income himself.

blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 21:03 (five years ago) link

music industry's death seem greatly exaggerated

to put that chart in perspective, the 50% haircut roughly mirrors landline ownership.

campreverb, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 21:06 (five years ago) link

How are you reading a 50% haircut? I'm looking at it on a phone but the 2017 figures look above 50% even relative to the 2000 peak, comparable to 1992 levels, and higher than 70s and 80s figures. Unless it's not inflation-adjusted? 90s was a bubble for the music industry.

All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 22:52 (five years ago) link

It's led to more people becoming totally apathetic about a career in music or even wanting to make any music of real quality

he was serious

paul ponzi otm'ing any part of that post is truly water finding its level

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:01 (five years ago) link

"when there's no financial incentive artists just put out any garbage" is both historically untrue and capitalist bullshit

There's far too much music being made with a "this'll do" quality to it, because they can't be arsed, and because Spotify places any new release by Mr. Joe Experimentalbollocks-from-Coventry on the same pedestal as something of real quality, they don't feel any great need to be arsed

this is not a real or observable dynamic, everything you say is bullshit, please stop taking up so much space on this board with your fucking bullshit

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:09 (five years ago) link

Oh look, Brad's throwing their toys out of their pram because they don't like what they're reading. Tough shit.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:13 (five years ago) link

You've be on your best behaviour for a while now, but you're coming out with some utter tosh itt.

Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:15 (five years ago) link

Or, to put it another way, Lars Ulrich circa 2000 OTM.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:15 (five years ago) link

... with all due respect, lol.

Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:16 (five years ago) link

... ah you see, this is why people think you're a troll.

Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:16 (five years ago) link

I'm in favour of people saying unsupportable nonsense on this board, but appropriate responses to being called on it include "oh rly? thanks for pointing that out" or "lol fair enough" or "you may be right but I'm going to continue thinking things I've made up based on no longer being a teenager but wishing nothing else in the world had changed, it comforts me" rather than "everyone else is the problem, not me"

blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:22 (five years ago) link

no worries i expect to see some mathematical proof for the argument that popular music reached its apex in 1996 before the thread finishes

Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:25 (five years ago) link

man I remember the Napster days and how everyone on it was like "this is awesome, I'd gladly pay for this if I could"...like, this was the era of the $17.99 CD with one or two good songs on it, massive amounts of re-issues and greatest hits, etc etc. tempting to blame the consumer but you can't really fault us for feeling ripped off.

Oh, I've no doubt some of the consumers on Napster adopted a "try before you buy" approach. Perhaps some did honestly wish they could compensate the artist if they came across something awesome, but couldn't afford to. C'mon, though, let's face it, most just wanted something for nothing. When the likes of YSI/Megaupload/Mediafire etc. appeared and Bittorrent became a thing it was game over.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:28 (five years ago) link

gen z doesn't know what file-sharing is

findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:29 (five years ago) link

so it's weird blaming something that is no longer relevant wrt the main consumer demo of popular music for its current state

findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:30 (five years ago) link

gen z doesn't know what file-sharing is

― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:29 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink

Irrelevant.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:34 (five years ago) link

The point is that it was (historically) the beginning of this whole mess, not that it's the current way people "consume" music.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gen Z were unaware as to what an expensive sounding, well recorded album sounded like either.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:36 (five years ago) link

there was a brief window of opportunity when bands like Metallica probably could have monitized downloading by interacting better with their fans, but the end result likely would have been the same.

movie downloading does not seem to have made much of a dent on the bottom line, when superhero movies break a billion. I suppose if albums or new music felt like more of an event they might get similar results? The big names, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Ariana Grande, that sort of act, seem to have really savvy teams that know how to balance conventional marketing with internet marketing and whatnot. The result though is kind of like hybrid, giant superstars hustling like grassroots acts.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:38 (five years ago) link

fwiw my kids largely listen to music on YouTube.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:39 (five years ago) link

When the likes of YSI/Megaupload/Mediafire etc. appeared and Bittorrent became a thing it was game over.

i doubt the vast majority of music consumers have ever used any of these.

visiting, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:53 (five years ago) link

Um

I align myself far closer to Turrican’s viewpoint than not, although for far different reasons and like it’s more complicated etc., and I’m surprised at your responses, Brad!

To say that “music these days is shit because nobody’s getting paid” is wrong; music is The Way It Is These Days because nobody’s getting paid.

This means: US or UK will not produce another Mark Hollis or Scott Walker with this current model

This means: we thankfully we be spared the vast amounts of coked-out-for-months-label-is-obligated-to-release-it-anyway releases that Too Much Money creates

This means: musicians will find new and ingenuous ways of creating capital-amassing product

This means: we may be forced to reconcile ourselves to the fact that “the current sound of nihilism” is reflective of the current economic model— XXXTentacion and his resultant success is fully a product of the nihilism that “no money and no privilege” creates and music to reflect that

The fact is that most of the music you love, Brad, relies upon capital investment and/or a particular level of privilege to get it to a level that you’d find digestible— unless, like me, you still have a 90s kid hangover and a taste for DIY and thus listen pretty-much exclusively to Tinashe’s self-produced material over her subsequent material

Music has changed (not for better, not for worse, it’s just changed) to reflect the fact that those of us who aren’t surviving largely on Arctic Monkeys Arcade Fire trickle-down and/or government-assisted grants, we just can’t actually make a living at this any more.

And as a result there is an incredible skepticism toward, and commodification of, musicians/technicians/engineers who actually do know what the fuck they’re doing— it’s like if tweecore became 100% aggressively politicized, and any semblance of “agency” is taken as a signifier of wealth

Unless you’re like Amen Dunes and hide your scion status or whatever

Me, I’m firmly in Camp Cass, kind of: recorded music as a saleable asset is a mistake, and culturally a net negative, and created a false economy in place of something that is inherently meant to be social and hobbyist. (I’m also 100% Team Fund-The-Arts, too)

flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:54 (five years ago) link

The point is that it was (historically) the beginning of this whole mess, not that it's the current way people "consume" music.

historically the introduction of 33⅓ was the beginning of this whole mess

blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:13 (five years ago) link

player piano music iirc

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:20 (five years ago) link

the error in turrican's theory is that we are saying that it equates file sharing with streaming because they are both digital distribution.... when file sharing is really the end of then not the beginning of now.

in file sharing there's still the idea that music has a monetary value, that it's something that you possess... either by buying it or stealing it. so yeah it is relevant that gen z doesn't know file sharing because they don't even have the idea of any media ownership, it's just as Bowie said, a utility... like turning on a faucet

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:31 (five years ago) link

It's both the end of then and the beginning of now - you cannot have an effect without a cause! The reason Gen Z wouldn't know file sharing is because of the changes to the industry brought on by... file sharing.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:36 (five years ago) link

Brought on by technological change

findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:38 (five years ago) link

And as a result there is an incredible skepticism toward, and commodification of, musicians/technicians/engineers who actually do know what the fuck they’re doing— it’s like if tweecore became 100% aggressively politicized, and any semblance of “agency” is taken as a signifier of wealth

this is totally otm and infuriating

This means: US or UK will not produce another Mark Hollis or Scott Walker with this current model

I was going to post something like this but decided against it because I assumed the response would largely be snark. You were smart to use two examples that are beloved by ILX; I was going to point out that under the current model we'll never see another Dark Side of the Moon, Rumours,, or any of the other coke-addled gajillion dollar records many of us still hold very dear

Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:40 (five years ago) link

we won't see something like them but we will see something equally amazing

Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:45 (five years ago) link

Yup. I mean, Daft Punk did the opposite of what many assumed they would on Random Access Memories. Rather than go for the kind of "in the box" production that already is sounding stagnant, they made an expensive, rich sounding blockbuster production.

Sadly, this is kinda an anomaly because - being a long-running act - Daft Punk had the money to be able to do it.

(x-post)

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:46 (five years ago) link

I'm worried we'll never see another Rigoletto

Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:46 (five years ago) link

I know Josh is joking but it make u think

player piano music is a really weird artefact not replicated in history (as far as the top of my head is offering now):
- consumption was still social (as with the innovation of cheap sheet music enabling popular songs to be heard at home and in the pub)
- the "some musical ability" barrier of entry was removed
- but while some homes and many pubs already had a regular piano, possibly handed down over generations, the player piano was a wildly expensive & worse-sounding upgrade/replacement to a piece of hardware that was already extremely expensive when new

kind of like if Pono had been the next step after the CD player, without an ipod in between, but it only played 96kbps mp3s

blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:48 (five years ago) link

not replicated in history - except for Conlon Nancarrow

Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:50 (five years ago) link

we won't see something like them but we will see something equally amazing

― Dan S, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:45 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have grave doubts

Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:51 (five years ago) link

Wasn't Sousa up in arms about sheet music being made widely available? It was Sousa, wasn't it?

Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:52 (five years ago) link

I bet he hated the fuck out of the player piano

Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:54 (five years ago) link

Has anybody written a good book about the 1942/47 Petrillo strikes? I would love to read more about them. It is amazing that all musicians went on strike for over two years and you really couldn’t hear any new music (apart from reissues and acappellas). That would NEVER happen nowadays.

― Mr. Snrub

and harmonicas because the harmonica wasn't a musical instrument

also there were v-discs

i do wonder what bebop would have been like if not for the recording ban

Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:54 (five years ago) link

I bet he hated the fuck out of the player piano

― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:54 PM (two minutes ago)

<3

Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:58 (five years ago) link

the player piano was the 78, LP, cassette tape, cd, file sharing, streaming

Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:02 (five years ago) link

kurt vonnegut's first novel

Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:05 (five years ago) link

fgti i think you're totally otm and agree with you, the kinds of artists that receive support and the kinds of music that come from that support changes as the industry changes and revenues shrink and etc. i think about this all the time! i just don't think any of that is what turrican was or is saying. "for far different reasons and like it's more complicated" is pretty much the key difference to me

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:33 (five years ago) link

Part of the reason I laud Mica Levi as much as I do is not just that her music is amazing but that it’s amazing “in this economy”— she’s found ways of working within tiny budgetary requirements (expensive hiring of Herbert on Jewellery included; she was a kid and it was her debut and clearly money well spent), and can also turn out magic when given the larger budget of a funded orchestra or a movie score with a budget for orchestra; she can also make the best album of the year (Feeling...) with just a computer and little else; see also other perennial fgti favourite Total Freedom

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:41 (five years ago) link

i just don't think any of that is what turrican was or is saying.

Actually, fgti elaborated quite well on a lot of what I was/am saying.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:43 (five years ago) link

oh my god just shut up

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:44 (five years ago) link

Hey, it's not my fault that that actually warranted clarification!

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:46 (five years ago) link

I loved Mica Levi's score to Under the Skin

Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:47 (five years ago) link

This is a shitty thing to say, but maybe musicians don’t deserve to make a living. Maybe it should be a hobby. But if that’s true, I don’t want to see some talentless pop stars making what they make, while quality living museums of folk-music knowledge get paid nothing. That’s not cool. But I’m not the one to decide. It’s good for people to know that, when they come out to see a show, these people are putting their whole life on the line to give their heart and soul. It means something more than money.”

But it's not like this is a new thing unique to this streaming era. Let's be real: "quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" have been broke since the invention of music, in the recording era there were a few who broke the rule and made bank but for every huge singer/songwriter that didn't need to worry about rent like say, Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens or Paul Simon there were thousands of musicians like say Jackson C. Frank, Ed Askew or Nick Drake that were on the other side of the dime.

It's not that musicians don't deserve to make a living, it's just that there's way too many of them and not everyone gets to be a star. You'll find this trend in virtually every entertainment branch since the beginning of time and I've never understood the attitude of acting all bitter and blame it on these damn kids and their pop interests.

✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:52 (five years ago) link

"Quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" do exist right now, except they are Club Mate-soused computer geeks who churn out hits for "talentless" pop stars, and are "museums" of the modern folk-music canon-- i.e., the pop charts.

Cass is himself an instrumentalist and he is lamenting a perceived economic decline of instrumental music, and rightfully so: he's the best songwriter, everybody knows it, and cherishes his albums, and yet still he underperforms at the ticket wicket, and it's a mystery as to why this is the case

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:21 (five years ago) link

Lol can you imagine if back in 2004 or whatever, Cass McCombs started making the same decisions that M.Ward has been making for the past 15 years? And vice versa? Wow that'd be really interesting. Cass sells out and forms a chart-topping kinda-twee duo with like Michelle Williams and M.Ward keeps on chugging out various versions of Vincent and wondering in thinkpieces why people don't respect the folk canon? I don't own a single M.Ward or She & Him album but that dude surely owns property by now

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:26 (five years ago) link

I should clarify, I really love Vincent and could probably sing every word of that album. I do like M. Ward and I'm glad he did good

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:30 (five years ago) link

This is all, btw, weirdly kind of apropos, since a couple of weeks ago in New York I had dinner with a musician friend of mine who was lamenting the state of things (for non-financial reasons, tbf). But I asked him, figuring he would know, if he knew many indie people making a living from making music, and iirc the person he eventually came up with was ... Cass McCombs. He didn't say he was making *tons* of cash, and he still had to tour all the time, but my friend said said he apparently did make enough to at least pay his band OK, and while I don't know if *they* are necessarily making a particularly good living, it ... beats working?

We did talk about a couple of other bands we knew, and their biggest issue was getting older, having families etc., and generally being unable to keep up whatever momentum they once had, at least not enough to attract new (which is to say, younger) fans who could replace their peers, who were going through similar stages of getting older, hailing families and not going to shows or buying music as much.

I honestly don't know if there are necessarily any fewer bands able to sell out relatively big clubs or venues than there were one the getting was good (if it ever was), but the paradox is that you have to keep touring non-stop while simultaneously working on new stuff. Which is a pretty tricky position to be in. But yeah, at least when it comes to performance, there doesn't seem to be a particular dearth of acts able to sell out shows, at least in this city.

I kind of wish that article was about some acts I actually recognized. Like, I dunno, a band like Best Coast. They haven't put out an album in three or four years, and while modestly popular they weren't huge or anything. What has she been doing in the meantime? Was she successful enough not to need a day job?

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:37 (five years ago) link


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