'Jazz': Search and Destroy

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Mark - I know you're a bit disparaging toward Nick Kent, and why not, but didn't you find it weird in that interview with MD where MD spends one paragraph savaging Darrel Jones for joining Sting, then the very next paragraph praising Sting and being equally savage towards anybody who disagrees on Sting's merit?

tarden, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Or was that Branford Marsalis? (Either way, criticism of Jones would be implied criticism of B Marsalis, so it's irrelevant).
Oh but it doesn't stop there! In that same interview, MD blasts Jagger ("Shaking a skinny white ass trying to be Wynonie Harris - throw that shit in the river and watch it sink! Fuck that shit!") - the very same Jagger who later replaced Bill Wyman with...DARREL JONES!
Incidentally how do you spell his Christian name?

tarden, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Right — and Kent so wants to be Down with the Maaan that he doesn't even (publicly) twitch, either time, right? Not to defend Sting (OK, maybe fair enough), then not to attack him when MD flips, and NOT TO DEFEND JAGGER. Excuse me, Nick, does the phrase "elegantly wasted" not ring a bell? (Poss no entirely fair: as rid myself of Dark Stuff ages ago and had frankly forgot it even included a Davis piece — but yes, I hate Kent cuz of oodles of v.obviously Unearned Attitude re Byronic rebel-stance).

Daryl? Daryll? [Consults FIELDS OF GOLD: the Best of Sting 1984-1994, to discover HAHA absolutely no musician credits given!! That'll teach those fusion fatheads to whore themselves to the Man]

(Man != Maaan)

I am now listening to Fields of Fire. Yes I am.

mark s, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Fire = Gold

mark s, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Jazz Cliche, A-level - "Upon first exposure to Ornette Coleman, most found his music difficult, incoherent, even the work of a con man. Even now, many bitterly resent him, holding him responsible for consigning 'jazz' to the unpopular realm of academic, esoteric music forever. Yet, even his few defenders failed to detect the heart of this strange new music - the down-home gospel and blues Ornette was steeped in, from his days playing gritty roadhouses and barbecue joints, honking like King Curtis and duck-walking like Chuck Berry."

tarden, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This is an absolutely universal cliche / critical standpoint (lots of the cliches are actually v.defensible) - Ayler got it too and tons upon tons of rock people. Boils down to: what matters with [noisy artist] is the song roots, not the noises. Used well - like most of these A-Level critical reverses - it sheds a fresh light on records.

Tom, Saturday, 16 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Conclusive proof — direct from the cultural frontline — that Marsalis et al won the attle but lost the war.

OK: I was at a screening of Pokémon 3: The Spell of the Unknown this morning. The short shown with it — Pikachu and the Pichus — is set in old cartoon New York (Pikachu has a kind of countryboy adventure in the Big City: lifts, alleys, airshafts, flagpoles, you get the picture. The entire 20- minute work is soundtracked not with computer blings and John Williams knock- off, but with CLASSIC HOT SWING!!

mark s, Sunday, 17 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So anyone read that new book by Paul Tingen, 'Miles Beyond: The Electric Explorations of Miles Davis 1967-1991'? If so, any good? Too dry? Or filled with wild speculation?

Omar, Thursday, 21 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Jordan is reading it right now. Perhaps he'll post and tell you what he thinks.

Josh, Thursday, 21 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Watched the programme again last night to see if it had improved or my perception changed. Sadly, no. Wynton M still babbling on irrelevantly, and voiceover saying something like 'Sonny Rollins released an LP called SAX COLOSSUS. And he indeed embodied the second word of its title'. The non-stop music itself is still tasteful, talented and undifferentiated to my ears. Can't tell one jazz record or performer from another.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

My guess = it gets worse, pinefox, not better. I *cannot bear* the narration, which is as pompously meaningless as you say. At least the tween-war years were full of stuff which required being placed back on the table, somewhat. Postwar jazz has its – yes, tasteful and safe — place already, and this just reads off the available promo leaflets.

mark s, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's taken me a good deal of listening to be able to tell players apart, Pinefox. I wouldn't count on being able to based on Wynton reading liner notes at you. (But Saxophone Colossus IS a fine record.)

Josh, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Last episode last night. It really was bizarre they suddenly skipped over 20 or 30 years, after the endless rambling through previous periods. But that criticism has already been made.

The programme did not leave me any better informed or more enthusiastic about jazz. That's not necessarily a bad thing, or the prog's fault. Possibly I am ineducable. But one thing did stay with me beyond the bombast - and beyond the soloists and blowers and wild men.

I loved the last few seconds, in which Duke Ellington said goodbye, as it were. That seemed right - as though he had been orchestrating it all. I don't know owt about Duke E. 'Take The A Train' was played countless times during the series (I saw it on the credits over and over again, often x2 for one episode), but I still have no idea whatsoever how it goes. I know more about 'Z Train' than 'Take The A Train'. (Has anyone ever heard 'Z Train'? For that matter, has anyone ever heard 'Take The A Train'??) Still, the thing is, Ellington somehow seemed more compelling as a figure, to me, than many of the others. Perhaps because he came across as not a Musician (though I daresay he was a great one), not a Soloist, but a Composer - an organizer. In pop I am attracted to the idea of the figure who conceptualizes, plans, organizes (the Arranger, to use a Joyceans' term?), then delegates and deploys, gives the plan to someone else and goes off to hide behind it. Maybe it's even a Flaubertian- impersonality schtick, this, the omnipotent artist hidden behind their handiwork. (Bacharach?)

I daresay that Duke E was not really the kind of figure I am trying to describe. But I got a feeling that he was a wee bit closer to it than some of the up-front soloist types. A writer, a thinker, a planner, a leader - that was the image I got. And I like that, and I took away a small fascination with this fellow. I appreciate, though, that jazz folks may think I've got it all wrong.

the pinefox, Friday, 29 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No, that seems pretty apt. I don't own much Ellington - and I don't own any of his small group playing where he might come more to the fore - but I always think of him as a composer / leader / whatever in my head. I suppose I put him in his own mental category, really, because I don't know much about other notable jazz musicians who maintained large groups, played, wrote and arranged the music, etc. Sun Ra doesn't count, he gets his own category too. :)

But having said that: I think the program focused a bit too much on some of the players' roles as soloists, to the detriment of their other qualities. Charles Mingus definitely fits the description you gave, despite (I think) being much more prominent as a soloist than Duke. (This makes sense, of course, because Duke was such an influence on Mingus.) A lot of other musicians known for being soloists played big roles in other areas, as well - it just helps to have more familiarity with them to see how. Probably not on the scale of Ellington, but then his band was big and so there are a lot of different things for a mastermind to mastermind.

Josh, Friday, 29 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

(pulls tattered pamphlet from hip pocket) Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys do a rockin version of Take the A Train, with a lovely little country stomp to it. It is said that Wills admired Ellington no end, and tried to implement his style of leadership into folk/country/swing/blues out West.

Ellington was an extraordinary piano player tho, and I've heard a lot of folks dis him in that regard - "oh, he was more of an arranger or composer" - may be true but his expressiveness and emotion at the keyb est nonpareil. "Money Jungle" is maybe my favorite all-round jazz album for Ellington's lyricism in the teeth of Roach's jagged snare assaults and Mingus's obstinacy.

Tracer Hand, Friday, 29 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

One jazz thing I like: the titles. 'Money Jungle'!

the pinefox, Saturday, 30 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...
*revive*

Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 20 January 2003 13:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

''WRY "MACONIE" STUART: Albert Ayler! What was that all about? It was a bit like Nora Batty consummating with Quackers out of Tich and Quackers with Julio Cortazar looking onward before turning into a pomegranate peacock! Eh? Eh? Thing is I actually know about this stuff and listen to it! But you want dumb - look at the ratings! So I'm laughing AT you, plebs! Eh? Eh?''

aargh...

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 20 January 2003 13:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

one year passes...
Alert Jazz Documentary on Channel 4 NOW !

Branford Marsalis: It's a Jazz Thing

World renowned saxophonist Branford Marsalis goes in search of the true spirit of contemporary jazz, embarking on a musical journey taking him from New York to Chicago and Paris to London.

Who is watching?

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

(help im an American and cant see Channel 4) So what does he find??

don, Saturday, 13 November 2004 19:45 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.jazzfm.com/whatson/jazzwise_news_list.php

10.04 :: Branford Marsalis to present new TV documentary

...The 90-minute documentary was made by production company Somethin' Else and is directed by Christopher Walker. The documentary follows Marsalis' travels around Europe and the US as he meets leading contemporary figures in jazz including Herbie Hancock, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin and Dave Douglas, Bill Frisell, Medeski Martin and Wood, Tim Berne, Evan Parker, David S Ware, Ken Vandermark and the Art Ensemble of Chicago. Commenting on the project, Jez Nelson, the executive producer on the show, says: 'There hasn't been a major, terrestrial jazz TV show for many years ? so this is really exciting for us. Branford is that rare thing ? a great musician who's also a superb and engaging presenter ? this should be a fantastic journey!'

So far NYC and Chicago have been visited

NYC, including

David S Ware
Tim Berne
DJ Spooky
Frisell
Dave Douglas
Michael Brecker

Chicago including:

Chicago Underground Trio
Ken Vandermark
Art Ensemble of Chicago

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 19:53 (nineteen years ago) link

Branford Marsalis is a good communicator/ listener

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 19:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Paris, London ,,, now in Norway !

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 19:58 (nineteen years ago) link

now in Sweden with e.s.t

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 20:01 (nineteen years ago) link

now back in norway: with arve h of supersilent fame

DJ Martian (djmartian), Saturday, 13 November 2004 20:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Is this some sort of sibling spat?

Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Saturday, 13 November 2004 20:39 (nineteen years ago) link

implicitly an "answer doc" (as in "answer records," like "The Dawn Of Correction" vs. "The Eve Of Destruction"), re just about all of thses atrists (if not *all*?) being left out of Wyntonic "KEN BURNS' JAZZ"?Looking fwd to seeing it some day. Think he'll get to David Murray and James Carter? Sort of get the idea from passing catswipes in Dwonbeat etc. that he feels crowded by those guys, a bit (or maybe it's just healthy Free Market competetiveness, but he can seem as snide as Baby Brother)

don, Saturday, 13 November 2004 20:51 (nineteen years ago) link

I missed the first 15 mins - missed bill frisell (and evan parker?).

This wasn't a history as such but more like 'this is jazz in 2004' type prog (I'm assuming that the date of broadcast - falling on the same weekend in which the london jazz fest begins - isn't a mere coincidence).

Branford set his position as an anti-pop market - this is a minority music; we've accepted this and we're just doing our thing. Given what I saw in 'jazz' I couldn't believe that there wz a prog with tim berne, matthew shipp, ken vandermark...and that even acknowledged jazz could come out from places like europe - not only that but he visited paris, norway, sweden, london etc. so from that pov I liked it!

He wz consistently for jazz as an imporvisational, acoustic art (and with a capital A too, which I found odd when he mentioned that his younger listening consisted of rock and funk) but he would only take an arg so far - when criticizing matthew shipp's experiments with hip-hop I half agreed when listening to samples but prob not even for the same reasons (isn't improvising with a steady beat jazz anyway - so what if the beat is a hip-hop one?) and I loved matthew's dismissal of genre (against marsalis setting out boundaries for it). His bias against electronic music really fell flat when a norwegian musician talked abt hancock's 'sextant' as a model for what he was doing and how it wasn't all button pushing.

He wasn't for 'chasing the kids' and competing with rock but when ken wandermark talked about how his emotional intensity would reach out to first time concert goers - but at the same time being dismissive of technique (and wandermark sort of agreeing!) it was just odd even if I knew where he wz coming from.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 13 November 2004 23:19 (nineteen years ago) link

So, he's actually having conversations, arguements, even, rather than just laying down the Last Word? Wynton's learned how to bullshit interviewers, but he's still Der Kommisar of Lincoln Center, wheread baranford's still the upfront asshole,with the cranky comments, yet genuinely seems to (happen to) enjoy a much wider range of music than does Wynton. The progressive asshole--another great jazz tradition, and glad to see he's growing into it! I really wanna see this.

don, Sunday, 14 November 2004 05:15 (nineteen years ago) link

five months pass...
what dave didn't say about 'the birth of bebop' (by scott deveaux) is that it doesn't just have musicological stuff, but puts that musicological stuff in socio-economic context, beautifully. i would say the book's more the latter than the former. basic argt is that, instead of being a clear-cut rebellion by black youth or defiantly anti-commercial art-for-art's-sake development, the formation of bebop had everything to do with young (and old - book spends a lotta time on coleman hawkins as a transitional figure) musicians unable to enjoy the rewards of the profession that was there for them (largely, dance band musician in the 20s-40s), or sometimes, unable to even survive in the profession, due to about four million things like the markets for dance bands, radio and recording access, white competitors and race relations in every single way you could imagine - on tours, securing jobs with bands, getting hotel residency gigs, drawing white customers to clubs, the economic crunch during the war. unable to get ahead, then, and: finding and making a way to get paid, and to enjoy the professional status and recognition they thought they deserved (as with any professional black musician at the time, in particular).

time spent on hawkins is partly because his progressivist leanings, harmonic ideas, etc. gave him certain affinities with the young players that he ended up associating with later in his career, to benefit of both parties; and because the story of his career provides a contrasting example of a swing-era musician looking for a way to be professionally successful (or just secure) apart from occupying a standard part in the swing music industry.

along with the berliner book, certainly the best thing i've ever read on jazz.

oh, and the musicological stuff is demanding (i can kinda follow the basic harmonic theory jargon but i've never studied it enough to -feel- what it means, which makes reading this stuff a battle against vagueness) but consistently illuminating.

Josh (Josh), Sunday, 24 April 2005 04:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Josh!

Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 24 April 2005 23:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Hi!

Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 24 April 2005 23:01 (nineteen years ago) link

one year passes...
Bumping, in light of the reference to it in the Keith Jarrett thread.

[Please forgive me for not re-reading everything up-thread; I will do so later and discover that whatever I say has already been said.]

I loved the series, because I tend to be ignorant of pre-bebop jazz, and there was a wealth of material that was new and wonderful from those early decades. It was nice to see the young Louis Armstrong in full possession of his mojo, and to learn that his lithe singing — quite a bit removed from the gravelly self-parody of the Louis I would see on TV as a kid — was almost the equal of his trumpet playing.

But I was among the chorus of haters (like Jarrett) who resented the coverage of the post-Ornette-goes-to-New-York years. I've calmed down since, and can see the documentary now as a history of the jazz industry rather than a history of jazz. It makes sense, in that context, to cover the fifth decades of Ellington and Armstrong's careers, rather than give adequate space to "Not Jazz as We've defined it" — New Thing, AACM, Brötzmann, fusion, and so on.

It's odd/interesting that the Ornette portion was so nicely done, considering the short shrift given to what follows him, but it makes sense in light of the later acceptance of his music by the Jazz at Lincoln Center people. Welcome to the jazz-industry canon, Mr. Coleman.

The film begs for a Jazz II, covering 1960 onwards, but with Carla Bley and Rafi Zabor replacing Wynton and Crouch as consultants. Unfortunately, that's not the sort of thing that attracts the corporate sponsorship. Give it 20 years.

mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 14:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Wynton Marsalis supposedly loves Ornette.

Anyway, I think your approach is the right one - yeah, the film was incomplete, but now there's a perfect opportunity to create their own take on it or to cover the ground that was missed. Hell, there should be 10 films.

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 25 September 2006 16:39 (seventeen years ago) link

eight years pass...

Wynton Marsalis called this 11-year old jazz pianist his hero last year

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/13/arts/music/joey-alexander-an-11-year-old-jazz-sensation-who-hardly-clears-the-pianos-sightlines.html

F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 17:25 (eight years ago) link

that led me to Kojo Roney (Wallace Roney's 9 year old nephew!) channeling Tony Williams, and holy shit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Ow0YEO9qM

lil urbane (Jordan), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 20:53 (eight years ago) link


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