Literary Clusterfucks 2013

That should stop being encouraged in the industry,

hmmmm

possibly even stop being allowed

ah ffs madness. madness!

I know there are good books in YA literary history that are set in another time or country or culture written by people who shared NONE of that history or country or culture--some of them are books I think of fondly and often. But it's not a good state of affairs. That should stop being encouraged in the industry, possibly even stop being allowed.

What, like no more historical or science fiction? U extreme man

Hm yeah okay I probably could have tried harder to put that clearly: I mean like fiction in which the main characters are people of other countries or races of cultures that the author does not share any of, is not the inheritor of any of. Like a white American writing about the challenges & struggles of uh idk a young Chinese girl during the cultural revolution or something. White people should not be assumed to have the ability to just "impersonate" anyone of any group throughout history, we're not a neutral body that can absorb infinite other identities and accurately depict them and whatever their struggles mean to their current descendants.

otoh do we really need more books written about and from the perspective of white ppl? maybe it's best if the whites just stop writing fiction altogether.

i dont think anyone assumes that anyone has any ability in fiction tbh.

but i dont think theres anything to be gained by even nodding towards the direction of someone, anyone, not having the actual right to write fiction from any pov

xp They can keep writing about white people, that's fine. And if they want to research their own ancestors' history and build something on that foundation I would encourage them to submit 100000 "Scottish lord romances time-traveling suffragette" romances to the slushpile and see what happens.

This is fun! I was ignoring this thread but thanks for keeping it going all day while I did work!

otoh minorities have a perspective of white ppl that white ppl themselves don't have (bc whiteness is invisible) so i'm not sure white ppl should be writing about white ppl which they don't know very well. only minorities should be writing about white ppl. let white ppl just read and be quiet for a little bit there are plenty of [bad] white books already.

Again, I'm not 100% sure but I think it seems like you think that's a bad idea whereas I feel fine about it.

white ppl post too much

the only problem of representation that actually exists is that there is inequality in who gets allowed to write and create works of fiction for a mass market audience. in a world where white men do not get most of these opportunities, we will have more representation of other identities.

the idea that white people should not be allowed to write fictional characters that aren't white is ludicrous, notwithstanding some of the egregiously terrible attempts writers have made (dfw writing a poor, black character's internal monologue in infinite jest will make you cringe yourself inside out).

I don't think programmatic and consistent rules about who is or isn't allowed to represent whatever is likely to end up benefiting anyone, least of all the oppressed or disenfranchised or voiceless, who are probably more hurt by such rules historically than helped by them. Let a thousand flowers bloom imo.

i think it's fine if we ban white ppl from writing ever again i think there's too much writing period and banning white ppl will stop the deluge, we can work on stopping non-whites from writing next.

I was planning on checking out a couple of Albanian writers but I can already guess what they'll be on about, being white myself.

how do we feel about ppl writing about genders that are not their own? i mean obviously men should not write women characters but probably they shouldn't write male characters either.

if Hitler had written about anyone elses kampf that wouldve been bad but

the only problem of representation that actually exists is that there is inequality in who gets allowed to write and create works of fiction for a mass market audience. in a world where white men do not get most of these opportunities, we will have more representation of other identities.

That seems reasonably accurate? Assuming that publication is something of a zero-sum game since publishers only put out so many books a year plus only have niche space for (x) number of releases that won't compete with other books on the same list, if more of those books were written by people of various marginalized identities it would begin to balance out the total sea of literature available to choose from.

I was planning on checking out a couple of Albanian writers but I can already guess what they'll be on about, being white myself.

you want to be careful about those so-called albanian writers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/17/ian-jack-jiri-kajane-albanian-hoax

masal bugduv's autobiographer iirc

you want to be careful about those so-called albanian writers

They're just like the rest of us.

If anything I think these controversies only show how cynical and pandering and premeditated the YA market has become. It's almost a market formula that's being used to discipline these writers.

xp perfidious

how cynical and pandering and premeditated the YA market has become.

After 15 years working in this exact market I simultaneously want to say it was never NOT commercialized and focus-grouped, and also, even though it was commercialized and focus-grouped, a lot of people in the business do it from their hearts and are passionate about helping works of art find a place in the world where they can reach young people's hearts and offer them something to smooth the path to adolescence and young adulthood.

I agree with what ryan said that hard rules about what stories “belong” to what groups will probably hurt minorities most in the end. Like this author currently getting rajed through hot coals is a black queer identifying dude and is being told to stay in his lane and not talk about kosovo. Just doesn’t seem like what I think of as progressive.

^is exactly why I posted the story in the first place. I get that on paper this book doesn't sound like a great idea for a few reasons, but that these controversies have resulted in writers of color self-censoring doesn't seem like a win for social justice to me. I resisted slippery slope arguments on these kinds of issues for years, but it's hard not to see how we don't end up in a place of policing people via narrower and narrower definitions of identity (can a sunni write a shi'ite character? etc.).

Yeah, it’s whack. Clumsy attempts ar cross cultural understanding are better than segregation.

Sometimes they even win Oscars!

While obviously representation is super important and needs to be addressed, isn't one of the essential jobs of a writer to empathize with another human's perspective enough to depict it convincingly?

I wonder how the Orphan Master's Son would be received right now, or if it would still get a pass because of the lack of available North Korean novelists.

I'm not 100% sure but I think it seems like you think that's a bad idea whereas I feel fine about it.

Perhaps you feel fine about it because it is only an idea, or a suggestion you are free to follow if inclined, not a dictum that is backed by force.

The idea that there are already 'plenty of white books' is true enough in one sense, but the idea that henceforth white people should stop writing books and only people of color should write about white people is a very bad idea imo. This might sound appealing as a version of 'putting the shoe on the other foot', but when the shoe is oppression based on race then we're talking about eye-for-eye retributive justice. I don't think its good to embrace that kind of thinking.

They can keep writing about white people, that's fine. And if they want to research their own ancestors' history and build something on that foundation

pretty sure this is how we got black metal

well sure but you're a white guy xp

lol xp

Everybody write about everything, try not to do it badly, publish more books by non-white dudes.

I mean, non-"white dudes", not just non-white "dudes" obv, but them too. :)

isn't one of the essential jobs of a writer to empathize with another human's perspective enough to depict it convincingly

imo this is the thing. and whenever this falls apart it's bc the author lacked the empathy or imagination or just failed to ask the people they were writing about literally anything. imo it's super possible to write outside of your own experience and perspective credibly even if you're a dumbass white guy but you have to do the work

There is another dimension to the perspective of these critics though—that people shouldn’t “profit from” the experiences of others, (ostensibly) even if they represent these experiences with nuanced and empathy. It’s an argument about exploitation.

In some ways it’s more depressing because it posits a zero sum situation where either authors of one group will succeed or authors from another group—they’re at odds.

we did the profit thing on the ethnic food thread

This is the one part of this perspective that makes a little bit of sense to me, even if the language of writers exploiting other people’s suffering for profit is a little overheated

And presents a really bleak picture of what writing *is*

Thinking in terms of a limited number of 'slots' and someone potentially taking 'yours' is so unhealthy for artists imo.

(even if in certain circumstances it might be true, because of structural inequalities and capitalism etc)

xp

the language of writers exploiting other people’s suffering for profit is a little overheated

Those critics might tone down their criticism if they understood just how little profit there is in being a novelist. Even published novelists rarely make enough to live on from writing books. Not mentioning all the failed novelists who plowed several years into a manuscript and couldn't sell it.

josé maría arguedas would be burned at the stake these days

well writing as an englishwoman i think its important we hear all voices

not sure if this will spill out of social media, but the Philadelphia literary world is in turmoil after a prominent poet/activist (and former Philadelphia Poet Laureate) revealed that as a teenager he was part of a Nazi Hardcore band.

Maybe he should have stayed a Nazi, that way we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of changing identities.

Here's their album btw. lol at 4 stars on RYM.

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/new_glory/backlash/

if you can't trust goatlipss and Turkey_Beard who can you trust?

Normally, I find that white power bands suck mightily. Somehow, New Glory escapes this generalization. Backlash is a surprisingly melodic Oi! record from this nationalist U.S. band of skins. The lyrics never seem to go down the path of name calling and hate. Rather, you'll hear a lot of praise for the white power skinhead movement and patriotism.

Hmmm…

I must admit I have even less patience for punk fash than I do for metal fash because with the latter there's always the excuse of exploring the darkest, least avowable recesses of humanity, whereas the former just brings to mind the banal idiocy of evil. I'm not saying this is a convincing argument at all, but…

Anyway, lol @ no 'name calling hate'; just 'a lot of praise for the white power skinhead movement'.

I think 31 years is probably long enough for an uncancellation