let's talk about this sometime jon
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 25 February 2019 14:45 (five years ago) link
Fuck the price is stupid high
― (•̪●) (carne asada), Monday, 25 February 2019 23:11 (five years ago) link
Wtf. 210 dollars??? A shop just opened here. They sell med weed at 10/12 euros. Been trying to convince the two ppl suffering from crohn to go. Alas one can't due to religious reasons, the other fears it might influence the impact of other medicine her kid is taking. (Daughter is 20 yo)
― nathom, Tuesday, 26 February 2019 15:26 (five years ago) link
can confirm it helps. obviously there are side effects. because it can potentially affect late brain development, i would be hesitant to push for someone younger than their mid-20s to use it regularly unless absolutely necessary.
― ⅋ (crüt), Tuesday, 26 February 2019 15:58 (five years ago) link
Oh hell no. She's an adult. Wldnt recommend for a kid.
― nathom, Tuesday, 26 February 2019 15:59 (five years ago) link
20 still too young for more-than-occasional use imo (he said hypocritically)
― ⅋ (crüt), Tuesday, 26 February 2019 16:02 (five years ago) link
though if her current medication isn't sufficient it's certainly something to consider.
― ⅋ (crüt), Tuesday, 26 February 2019 16:04 (five years ago) link
Her diagnosis is very recent though they now realize she's had it since she was 12. But it's sth to consider. Fuck Crohn. :-((((
― nathom, Tuesday, 26 February 2019 21:18 (five years ago) link
it help relieve symptoms for sure (i used to use it when i otherwise could not leave my house, now on humira that's not as much as an issue and i mostly use it for pain relief + appetite) and the science isn't quite there yet (mostly they're researching its effects on crohn's in israel) but the anti-inflammation might help w/ the crohn's itself
― Mordy, Tuesday, 26 February 2019 21:19 (five years ago) link
As an anti-inflammatory, is it even as effective as ibuprofen? Or is the idea that it is less effective but less unhealthy?
I might have mentioned already, but since I had always heard about its benefits for those with glaucoma (which my mother in law takes medicine for) we found that you would pretty much have to be dosing with cannabis on a near non-stop basis to come close to the effects of Rx meds.
I'm really torn about legalization, at least in some regards. It should really be decriminalized, or at least no more criminalized than alcohol, but that kind of elides over the issue that alcohol is not particularly good for you. So it's def. hypocritical and stupid that cannabis is mostly illegal and alcohol isn't, but probably for the vast majority of people neither has many benefits and both have potential drawbacks, health or otherwise. Of course we have tried prohibition, and that didn't work, but there's something kind of ... off about making something at least potentially dangerous freely available just because you can't stop people from using it. It's like a rhetorical circle.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 26 February 2019 23:53 (five years ago) link
something at least potentially dangerous freely available just because you can't stop people from using it.
decriminalization cannot regulate the black market any more than prohibition can. even if you view it as a potentially dangerous drug, the fact that it cannot be effectively controlled in a black market means that at least a legal market allows us some small measure of regulation and control, and the state can collect taxes that may be used to offset potential harms.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:14 (five years ago) link
JiC on what basis should the government be restricting people's usage of a plant? "potential drawbacks, health or otherwise" -- if that's your standard there are a lot of things we should ban before cannabis. not just alcohol. maybe we should ban palm oil, artificial sweeteners, high fructose corn syrup and sodas, cigarettes, alcohol, numerous over the counter medicines... humans can abuse all kinds of things and cannabis they can abuse much less than others.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:19 (five years ago) link
unless you can give me a clear and unequivocal reason why cannabis is dangerous to adults i don't think you need to be a libertarian to believe the govt has no business banning it.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:20 (five years ago) link
What's "at least potentially dangerous" about weed? Stoned driving?
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:27 (five years ago) link
but probably for the vast majority of people neither has many benefits
alcohol gets you drunk and weed gets you high; demanding more benefits seems plain spoiled
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:29 (five years ago) link
Well, you underscore my point. There are *a lot* of dangerous or potential dangerous things that we allow and/or encourage! From a rhetorical standpoint it seems as tenuous to me to say potentially dangerous product A should be legal because dangerous product B, etc is legal as it is to argue, well, people are just going to do it anyway. Even if both of those things are true! I def. don't think the government should ban it and I never said they should. It definitely benefits some people. The challenge, when it comes to legalization, esp. recreational, is where to draw those lines, those restrictions. Obv. small children shouldn't use cannabis products. How about teens? At what age? How should they be penalized for using under age, or holding at school, or showing up at school high? These are as much social issues as they are legal issues, and these are things people have struggled with for years for all sorts of substances/activities. But it stands to reason that the more legal it gets the more it will be used and abused, so a question becomes how to deal with that and when.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:30 (five years ago) link
xpost
If you hired a babysitter for your kid, would you rather she be stoned or sober? Would you care?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:31 (five years ago) link
Like, you're not going to overdose on cannabis, so in that regard it's "safe." But it does alter and impair functions.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:32 (five years ago) link
(I type, as I sip a delicious cold beer.)
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:33 (five years ago) link
xps. .this is a silly line of questioning. you would presumably want them to be sober.
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:33 (five years ago) link
I know! My point is it's safe, in that you won't die, but it still has an effect that is not always good. Which calls for some degree of regulation. The question is how much.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:35 (five years ago) link
But it seems to me to be harder to regulate than alcohol.
It's interesting, I should talk to my kids about it. They are so aware of the dangers of tobacco smoke and (unaware) of its previous ubiquity that they react to even a whiff of it in public with total disgust. I wonder what they think of pot smoking (which I don't think they've encountered much of yet, just Juul kids).
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:37 (five years ago) link
(I should say I fully support legalization, I just don't know if everything has been totally thought through yet.)
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:40 (five years ago) link
I barely see students smoking cigs on campus anymore. Last November I asked a class of ninety journalism students if they smoked. Two raised their hands. When I asked how many vaped, about twenty raised their hands. "Should've asked us if we smoked something else," a kid in the front row said.
― Let's have sensible centrist armageddon (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:42 (five years ago) link
what do you mean by harder to regulate than alcohol?
basically all the same issues (minimum age for purchase, can't be under the effects of it when you're driving etc.)
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:44 (five years ago) link
I mean it's easier to sneak into places than it is to sneak in alcohol. It is also harder to gauge someone's level of inebriation.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:47 (five years ago) link
This is total tangent, but a senior at my son's high school was recently stabbed to death by two middle school kids in an apparent botched Juul deal. Point being, there's probably a lot about teens today that we don't quite get either.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:48 (five years ago) link
Man, my daughter complains about kids in the bathroom Juuling all the time.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 00:57 (five years ago) link
I mean it's easier to sneak into places than it is to sneak in alcohol.
Uh... it's super easy to sneak alcohol into places and it doesn't smell. Vodka + Gatorade, the drink of functioning high school alcoholics.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:08 (five years ago) link
my senior prom was cut short an hour early when some kids puked all over the hilton waikoloa village's bathroom after overindulging in what they'd snuck past the staff in salad dressing bottles
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:17 (five years ago) link
maybe they OD's on thousand island dressing? I would.
― Let's have sensible centrist armageddon (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:25 (five years ago) link
zesty
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:25 (five years ago) link
Josh: Convince me.Everyone: These arguments convince us.Josh: I still need more convincing.
Me: Think about the options as long as you need and if you still aren't convinced, well, OK. Be that way.
There's no guarantee that marijuana will never harm anyone in any way, or lead to some situation you find undesirable. Wanting that is like crying for the moon. Figure out where the least harm lies. That's the only approach that can deal with this kind of issue.
The results we are getting with our current approach do massive amounts of harm in my view. How about you convince me the harms you fear are worse?
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:27 (five years ago) link
Weed stores have been open in Washington for what feels like forever now, and the worst problem they’ve caused is gentrification
― moose; squirrel (silby), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:34 (five years ago) link
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, February 26, 2019 8:17 PM (eleven minutes ago)
look, I said I was sorry
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:36 (five years ago) link
i was ready to go tbh
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:43 (five years ago) link
Possible link to increase in pedestrian deaths:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/business/pedestrian-deaths-marijuana.html
― o. nate, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 01:59 (five years ago) link
decrease in pedestrian lives tho
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:01 (five years ago) link
#pedestrianlivesmatter
― Let's have sensible centrist armageddon (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:07 (five years ago) link
i don't quite understand the argument JiC is making. in states where it's legalized, it's regulated. you have to be over a certain age to buy it (like cigarettes & alcohol) in many states, it's illegal to be under the influence of weed while you drive (like alcohol and many other drugs). so what's the objection?
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:09 (five years ago) link
if you don't want your babysitter to be high, you probably also don't want your babysitter to be drunk. so...do you ask your babysitter to please not get drunk before you leave the house for the evening? or do you try to find a babysitter that knows not to get drunk while they're looking after your kids?
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:10 (five years ago) link
i think JiC is concern trolling?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:10 (five years ago) link
Maybe a little. I just mean for people arguing it is safe, then how can you simultaneously concede it's, say, not safe enough that you want someone in a position of authority using it? Yes, no more so than alcohol, but that's more an argument for the abolition of alcohol than it is for the legalization of cannabis.
How about you convince me the harms you fear are worse?
I think that's kind of silly and circular (not you, just the argument). As I understand it, ridiculous and arbitrary restrictions have made it impossible to freely study cannabis and its effects, longterm or medical or otherwise. But the contradiction I pointed out almost negates that: everyone knows alcohol is overwhelmingly bad for society, but ... so what, we've decided it's not going anywhere. The benefits to legal cannabis seem ancillary: decriminalize and it helps people legally, tax it and it helps the government financially. But the product itself? Its benefits and effects are more nebulous and inconsistent and anecdotal, as far as I've read.
Anyway, like I and you said, there's no "convincing" me. Legalization is the clear direction we are heading in. But I'll be the first to concede I don't know the legal ramifications or regulations at all. For example, how does regulation and enforcement in, say, Amsterdam compare to Washington? I have no idea. Are we (US) generally more legal? More strict? The same? How is Canada handling it? No idea, it's all so ad hoc. But I'll say it will be and is a fascinating experiment to live through.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:14 (five years ago) link
everyone knows alcohol is overwhelmingly bad for society
the sources of alcohol have been symbiotic with society for so many millennia, changing us and being changed, that i'd honestly have no idea where to begin evaluating the quality of the relationship, but i'm confident no one needs to call the cops
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:32 (five years ago) link
The answers to all those questions are freely available if you really cared to know them.everyone knows alcohol is overwhelmingly bad for societyEveryone does not know this.
― steven, soda jerk (sic), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:32 (five years ago) link
Yes, not everyone, but I thought the cost (literal and figurative) to society, from alcoholism to violence to drunk driving deaths, was pretty well known. Maybe not!
The answers to all those questions are freely available if you really cared to know them.
How about a link or two? I did a quick search for Colorado vs. Amsterdam, and every article (for good reason) was from 2014.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:37 (five years ago) link
I just mean for people arguing it is safe, then how can you simultaneously concede it's, say, not safe enough that you want someone in a position of authority using it?
Tandem sky-diving is safe, but I don't want the President issuing executive orders while HALO jumping.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Wednesday, 27 February 2019 02:42 (five years ago) link