The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

I was thinking last week that what this story needed was Richard Branson popping up out of nowhere with a weird front organisation and agitating to open the border with Colombia...

lol what jokers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/20/pink-floyd-roger-waters-condemns-richard-branson-venezuela-aid-concert

Pink Floyd are...good now?

Another day another centrist rinsed:

Euronews journalist asks President Maduro if he recognizes Venezuela's problems.

Listen to Maduro's answer. pic.twitter.com/5vIEQYVpxb

— MV English (@MV_Eng) February 20, 2019

An extraordinary interview.

I know Elliott. He has been a colleague of mine at the Council on Foreign Relations, and I think that he is a very smart person. I think he is basically a good person and he is somebody who I don’t see as being terribly ideological. I really see him as a foreign-policy professional who has served the country a long time. I think you can certainly attack him for his role in the Iran-Contra affair. I think that’s legitimate. The fact that he did plead guilty in two misdemeanor offenses of misleading Congress, that’s never O.K., but I think it’s unfair of Congresswoman Omar to suggest that he is somehow an enabler or an apologist for genocide, because, in fact, anyone who knows anything about the history of American policy since the nineteen-seventies knows that Elliott has actually been one of the most influential and eloquent voices for putting human rights and democracy front and center in American foreign policy.

Man, xyzzzz, you've become like my youtube recs on a particularly bad day. 'Milo DESTROYS feminist'

You should give up film reviewing and go into political reporting and interview Maduro sometime. I would like to see you being DESTROYED too.

All that aside it was an excellent answer. The concern trolling from centrists only applies to countries which try a different system to capital. No one goes to this or that region in India (Maduro gives Colombia as an example) and looks at the daily struggle because they are undergoing liberal reforms and so are good.

There's literally been a Netflix show and a James Bond movie based on Columbia? It's just a straight up lie what he says. And I've read tons of articles about poverty India, which, btw, is governed by a religious populist who overthrew a basically neoliberalist regime that did all the typical reforms in the nineties. You're really living in tankie fantasist land.

I've written a really good article on depictions of politics in Indian cinema on Netflix :) I'll post it if anyone wants to google translate it.

Bond movie was about Bolivia? Unless there have been two recent Bond movies about S. American geopolitics (haven’t seen anything since QoS)

License to Kill. I'm thinking of Escobar. Unless he's claiming that 15 million Columbians has left in the last year, which I doubt very much.

But this is just a pointless debate. Anyone who thinks 'capital' is scared of Maduro is a deluded tankie. He's as much a gift to capital as Trump has been to the DSA. What's going on in Venezuela is basically the capitalist version of accelerationism.

lol sure tell that to the good folks at The Economist!

Capital doesn't have a problem with Modi who carries on the neolib reforms.

Its not about being scared of Maduro or otherwise - its about interventionism, which the US are very much keen on. His point is pretty good, what is the poverty level in Colombia or in the rest of Latin America? Nobody cares.

There's literally been a Netflix show and a James Bond movie based on Columbia?

lol fomenting a coup vs airing Narcos

lol sure tell that to the good folks at The Economist!

Capital doesn't have a problem with Modi who carries on the neolib reforms.

Its not about being scared of Maduro or otherwise - its about interventionism, which the US are very much keen on. His point is pretty good, what is the poverty level in Colombia or in the rest of Latin America? Nobody cares.

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, February 21, 2019 8:36 AM (fifty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not really a very good point. the poverty level in venezuela is incredibly high and millions of its people are moving to other countries in the region for economic reasons. that's a pretty simple fact. for example chile has 200,000 venezuelans living there, a tenth of all foreign residents of the country, and the nationality that makes up the greatest proportion of foreign residents in chile. ten years ago venezuela wouldn't have been in the top 5

It’s not a good point because Venezuela is getting worse and Colombia is mostly just not getting better. It’s a valid point in the sense that nobody would use the immense poverty and displacement in Colombia, and the government’s long-term failure to address it, as the pretext for regime change. Colombia’s problems are allowed to be complex, historically-rooted and partially out of the government’s hands. Venezuela’s problems are assumed to be the fault of the dude with the moustache.

im obv opposed to regime change but i just have never been very convinced by that variety of whataboutery. and there is a difference between getting worse and not getting better of course

The US has intervened in Colombia plenty, no? + The collapse of the Venezuelan economy isn't really due to problems that are 'complex, historically rooted and partially out of the goverment's hands.' It's mostly failed oil policies...

Colombia after the violencia is a great example of how bad elite consensus rule can be for a country, though.

Also, just lol at the idea that critics of chavist Venezuela are too focused on single persons. You're an endless fount of well-informed but inane bullshit, SV.

shut the fuck up fred

^^ needs sitewide mod privs ASAP

my man

It's perfectly easy to assume the evil-worst of American involvement, i.e. Elliot Abrams, and want something better for Venezuelans than Maduro, whose government is the recipient of unnecessary hardship thanks to the United States but whose policies represent failure too. But that's for neutral arbitrators or Venezuela to sort out .

Yeah, neutral countries like Denmark! All you ilxors of the wannabe empires need to stay out of this.

Fixing Alfred's quotation upthread concerning Eliot Abrams:

one of the most influential and eloquent voices for putting abundant lip service toward human rights and democracy front and center in American foreign policy whenever it proves most expedient for US corporate interests.

im obv opposed to regime change but i just have never been very convinced by that variety of whataboutery. and there is a difference between getting worse and not getting better of course

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Would US intervention make things "not getting better" and is that enough for you? What would be the price that most non-white Venezuelans pay for that? It might take the pressure off Chile or what would a Venezuelan civil war mean for Chile? I know you are not for intervention either but you are fond of the word "whataboutery" but do your lines of thinking amount to US intervention and who would benefit?

But that's for neutral arbitrators or Venezuela to sort out

NO, it is for Venezuelans ONLY to sort out - with neutral, good-faith arbitrators and only if Venezuelans want it.

Take another example in Zimbawe - evil Mugabe is now gone. Is life any better for its people? I am sure we could google and find out via reports or the odd blog from far away, but we really wouldn't know. And anyway it doesn't matter because its off the news. There is something wrong in getting to grips with a country now and then just because we don't take too kindly to its leader and the news needs to fill us in.

And what are our leaders like anyway? In the UK we see what nice sounding liberals like Cameron have bought, and what the country might turn into. A lot of it is that we in the West don't like anything off the liberal path but we see what hell the UK and US are for a lot of people. SVs point is quite good there. But our understanding is limited.

On top of that, imagine what some of the ppl drawing up foreign policy are like. Some don't even get it, others are Trump-like watching fucking Narcos on Neflix like cunts and seriously bringing that to a discussion.

Take another example in Zimbawe - evil Mugabe is now gone. Is life any better for its people?

the same regime is in power. would be the equivalent of maduro stepping aside for someone else in the PSUV

im obv opposed to regime change but i just have never been very convinced by that variety of whataboutery. and there is a difference between getting worse and not getting better of course
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Would US intervention make things "not getting better" and is that enough for you? What would be the price that most non-white Venezuelans pay for that? It might take the pressure off Chile or what would a Venezuelan civil war mean for Chile? I know you are not for intervention either but you are fond of the word "whataboutery" but do your lines of thinking amount to US intervention and who would benefit?

im not bothered about venezuelan immigration to chile - other than venezuelans being given preferential treatment while the conservative government simultaneously makes it harder for people to immigrate from other less developed countries in the americas, especially haiti.

whataboutery i am fond of because saying "columbia has poverty too" while you preside over a failing state isn't a fucking argument, all arguments in a similar vein carry no water at all, and they're a personal bugbear.

as I'm explicitly against US intervention your question regarding that is basically a non-sequitur.

NO, it is for Venezuelans ONLY to sort out - with neutral, good-faith arbitrators and only if Venezuelans want it.

I thought I implied the latter, but I suppose "and" did too much work.

Seems like it's getting worse this weekend, btw: https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/the_americas/venezuela-braces-for-possible-conflict-ahead-of-oppositions-push-to-deliver-humanitarian-aid

oh well. google the headline...

whataboutery i am fond of because saying "columbia has poverty too" while you preside over a failing state isn't a fucking argument, all arguments in a similar vein carry no water at all, and they're a personal bugbear.

I get where you are coming from but in this specific example, you have a country with, what, 4m internally displaced refugees?, many of whom are in abject poverty, pulling stunts with hundreds of tonnes of rotting food in order to gain international public support for their troops to be able to roll across the border. Pushing back on whether poverty alleviation is the core objective and highlighting that the two countries share some of the same issues is legit. As you say, it’s not an answer for why Venezuela is getting worse, in itself, though.

rotting food? link?

It goes without saying that hundreds of thousands are suffering in Venezuela, and the instinct to alleviate that suffering is a healthy one. But a craven marketing stunt by far-right Cold Warriors—without any buy-in from actual aid organizations—cannot be taken at face value.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-u-s-venezuela-aid-convoy-story-is-clearly-bogus-but-no-one-wants-to-say-it/

fred stop

lol, Adam Johnson at truthdig. And even that bullshitter doesn't claim that the food will be rotting. Bravo.

la cosa está que arde. Hoping tomorrow isn't too horrible

the same regime is in power. would be the equivalent of maduro stepping aside for someone else in the PSUV

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 21 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Which of course would not be enough for the US or whoever. Similarly Corbyn stepping aside wouldn't be enough unless that person was Chris Leslie.

whataboutery i am fond of because saying "columbia has poverty too" while you preside over a failing state isn't a fucking argument, all arguments in a similar vein carry no water at all, and they're a personal bugbear.

screaming "whataboutery" isn't enough either. Its not an argument so much as the lines of thinking and sheer hypocrisy of the West. The UK has murdered disabled and vulnerable benefit claimants - why shouldn't we be invaded? Why shouldn't there be people throwing food and money from boats? If it sounds ridiculous then that's what you are getting at the moment. Let your Danish internet film critic scream "bullshit" and don't join in - the only road from "whataboutery" is going "maybe the opposition isn't so bad they will throw crumbs at the poor Venezuelan blacks". We know a negotiated solution wouldn't satisfy white people who are thosands of miles away.

lol:

The human rights crisis that has engulfed #Venezuela for the past few years has shattered the lives of millions of people. Here’s what you need to know. https://t.co/ea9klXpLX5

— Amnesty International (@amnesty) February 19, 2019

"10. Damaging US sanctions."

Is there an invasion yet? Don’t know why xyz talks about an invasion. In any case, the absolute failure for some people in this thread to see that this was never about sovereignity of plucky little Venezuela but two imperial dicks waving at each other on the corpse of hilariously stupid economic policies is staggering. Economic sanctions and Abrams are shit; so are the russian-armed military who has control of the economy (that’s not socialism imo).

Venezuelans won’t be allowed to sort it out because that is what dictators do not allow. The last elections were fraudulant, lots of people have a hard time finding food or medecine, the military and judiciary are in the President’s camp and Maduro seems very intent into not giving his position away. How can people make a choice in those conditions?

otm

What is all this about "russian-armed military who has control of the economy" wtf. Fred give us a link!

Of course there has been no invasion, atm its parts ridiculous noise but there are sanctions and much pressure being put.

There is no good faith from the side of the opposition that I've seen at all. The path to talks, leading up to elections doesn't look good and there are perfetly fine reasons for that.

VHS otm

Amuse yourselves with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/feb/23/venezuela-brazil-border-aid-live-news-latest-updates

An invasion isn't exactly crazy talk. With Venezuela no longer controlling its border, Brazil taking control (by encroaching on Venezuelan territory) isn't unthinkable.

Man I have seen thinly veiled plans before but this veil is close to nonexistent https://t.co/soLTGGyxQA

— Vincent Bevins (@Vinncent) February 24, 2019

Bevins is quite good in general imo.

Yeah there is no veil and I can not believe Maduro was dumb enough to fall for this.

Jokes, I totally did, Maduro is scum and Maduro is dumb. If he cared a slightest bit about the Venezuelan people he would start looking at ways to transition away, some non-imperalist countries gave him a chance and he kept his this dangerous position.

wtf

pic.twitter.com/ZwxbWyV1HF

— Marco Rubio (@marcorubio) February 24, 2019