MATTHEW BOWER (Pure/Total/Skullflower/Sunroof!/Hototogisu/Voltigeurs)

Xpost what a great way to look at it.

politics and problematic imagery are right out there in public view

unless you're using 'in public view' to mean 'would eventually be found, given enough time looking into his personal online presence and recorded discography' then this doesn't really seem like the case at all here

looking into his personal online presence and recorded discography

this is something one does when one is booking a festival and/or doing the promo/marketing for it ... i'm not talking about the casual fan

we're talking about a Gen X noise dude who puts out records called "Fucked on a Pile of Corpses" -- it's not a guarantee dude will have distasteful politics, but it's worth a look-see

yeah but you could dismiss that as some anti-pc avant-gammon bullshit, it doesn’t necessarily translate to hey guys check this cool swastika on my wall

this is something one does when one is booking a festival

sure if it's a black metal or streetpunk or Prurient haircut noise kinda thing. would be surprised if this was done as a matter of course for most DIYish festivals that don't answer to this description

in the case of this particular one I suspect the intended context of Skullflower's presence was mostly related to their place on the psych/noiserock continuum, which is what most of the rest of the bill leans towards. as such if dude hasn't spent an hour or two googling and/or privately asked ppl 'anything dubious I should know about this act before I book it?', it's probably because it's not an issue he's had until now. still an oversight but not really seeing how it amounts to quote-unquote virtue signalling

the "virtue signalling" comment came from another noise dude ... just exploring that perspective

Fucking Hell, Bower

i second this comment - can anyone tell me more about cold spring and how much they’re implicated with the fash?

"Is dude seriously a fascist, or is it just something like Prurient's haircut?" lol

xpost FWIW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Spring_(label)

https://www.discogs.com/label/9578-Cold-Spring

Laibach!

I was pretty proud of myself when I showed up to the Hospital Records 20th anniversary show in my Fishbone FUCK RACISM t-shirt as counterprogramming to the fash fashion show

actually, looking through the cold spring discography and there are definitely some fash acts in amongst them.

https://i.imgur.com/fxCsu1Q.jpg

serious Super Hans gone wrong vibes

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

lemmy maybe? i don't know that much about his views

Jeff Hanneman, Dee Dee Ramone, Gunplay

my only exposure to this guy was a vibracathedral orchestra 7" that I probably played once so I'll sleep comfortably knowing I'm not actively supporting a nazi or some shit.

I was pretty proud of myself when I showed up to the Hospital Records 20th anniversary show in my Fishbone FUCK RACISM t-shirt as counterprogramming to the fash fashion show

I'm curious to know how and where do we as listeners/supporters of problematic artists draw the line. Skullflower, Pure, Ramleh etc. have clear, decades-long ties to fascist and holocaust fetishizing scenes like Broken Flag; scenes that have evolved and are active today in the noise/industrial/PE underground. If we telescope out from Bower's associations we implicate a host of artists/labels who I'm certain do not espouse the same views. I listen to and, probably more importantly, buy records by artists who I know are atrocious people. Why?, because I fall back on the facile reasoning of 'all is permitted in art.' My tastes, though, and material support of music is worldly and omnivorous and I must believe on some level that it evens out. I've encountered IRL notable indie rock artists who are demonstrably terrible in their politics and actions though it's not evident in their art. I generally disengage with art when such is evident. I do not mean to point fingers or justify myself - just want to know how ilxors (a most informed and thoughtful forum) contend with all this.

it is challenging for me, for sure. I envy people who have stronger, simpler values whether they are based on the art or based on the politics/ethics. I do see a generational/age aspect of this in terms of the noise/industrial scene. But for me, there is a social aspect, that someone who has a normal life and is solely a listener/concert attendee doesn't have to deal with.

can you expand, sarahell, on your felt experience of the social aspect? no worries if you'd rather not. i'm a musician, too, and have shared bills with very suspect noise and metal projects and the general feeling between me and collaborators/promoters is, 'woah, those guys are on some shit,' but we carry on and maybe feel gross. it's a failure of courage and cynicism on my part that perpetuates this. i guarantee that this same scenario plays out regularly in punk and indie shows.

As a long-time DIJ/C93/NWW/Whitehouse fan, this guy has always passed me by for some reason but this incident has spurred me on to check him out. IIIrd Gatekeeper sounding particularly fine at the moment.

I know of him (MB) bc he did something with Richard Youngs iirc? On the social level, I’m generally uncomfortable around people who radiate their own discomfort — men who are miserable to the point of nihilism scare me. Fortunately I don’t really hang around many people like that, though I know they’re floating around. I think I’m actually pretty sensitive to harshly negative vibes because they can be aimed at me. This guy is definitely someone I would avoid at this point.

Avoid consuming his music not hanging out socially. Sarahell is otm about the generational aspect of this type of behavior.

can you expand, sarahell, on your felt experience of the social aspect?

I'm in my mid-40s, and was a booker/promoter/organizer of shows in my local noise (and adjacent genres) scene for ... almost 20 years? So some of these older "edgy" guys are people I've known and been friends with for a long time. One of the things I tried to do, and that others are also doing even more of, is making things more inclusive in terms of gender, gender identity, race/ethnicity -- so it isn't a bunch of (now-balding) white dudes playing for their (now-balding) white dude friends. And so, the "edgy" politics are now problematic, and I have people I like and care about on both sides of the issue.

At one point, about a year ago (maybe two?) there was a local festival with a couple problematic acts, and that was called out and one of my friends was involved with the festival, and another friend (who didn't know the first friend) tried to have a productive discussion with the festival friend about the problems, and it was ... awkward ... like all the excuses/rationalizations that you read people saying in articles and shake your heads at ... those were what were going through my head, and sometimes out my mouth. "well, he isn't actually a fascist, he's just kinda nihilistic, in general." ... "It's more about the aesthetics than the politics." ... "He had a rough upbringing." ... "He's not racist." ... and then on the other side, "She is actually really fucking smart and has thought about this a lot, and is not just following the lead of others." .... "She actually has spent a lot of time in this scene, almost as much as you, and isn't that much younger than you are. It's not like she doesn't know the history and context of this stuff." .... "You might respond differently if you were black and trans, but you are a white guy born with a dick."

i was really into his music as sunroof! and youngsbower from 2000 to 2003. i spent i don't know how many hours listening to youngsbower's "relayer" and sunroof's "found star sound"

i loved the blissed out vibe of the music, it seemed so peaceful and almost childlike in its blissed-out simplicity. at the time i was also listening to a lot of stuff like alice coltrane and terry riley and it seemed of a piece with that

looking back at track titles, i notice some of the ones that drew me in ("bright pacific streams", "new martian sun tunnel") but also ones that seem much creepier in retrospect ("columbine kisses", "silver nazi suicide")

and some that seem fittingly ridiculous ("jacking off making airplane noises")

Sorry I went bald

that would be a good band name / album title / track title for a power electronics group

yeah, fucking on a pile of corpses is in line with jacking off making airplane noises imo --

As a long-time DIJ/C93/NWW/Whitehouse fan, this guy has always passed me by for some reason but this incident has spurred me on to check him out. IIIrd Gatekeeper sounding particularly fine at the moment.

― the word dog doesn't bark (anagram), Tuesday, 12 February 2019 19:49 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

o_O

lol ... "if you liked this band associated with fascism, you might like this other artist also associated with fascism!"

this to me is like guys who post fucked up alt-right memes even though they're "not racist" and just "doing it for the lols."
assosciate yourself with that kind of negative/hateful attiude/imagery for long enough and can you be surprised when someone thinks you might, in fact, be kind of sketchy? says a lot to me that a good chunk of people trying to defend Bower are calling out his critics as snowflakes who need a safe space. like, if that's your positioning, i'm not going to argue with you, but i think it's a laughable defense.

i'll say in the interest of full-disclosure that i have enjoyed some of this guy's music, particularly as the late great alludes to the more ambient/minimal/simplistic stuff. Never a power electronics guy.

prurient sucks,

yes maybe this is where i turn in my credentials too, because i feel like there are any number of perfectly serviceable noise bands w/ non sketchy politics that can cover, say, the hole left in my life by never listening to iiird gatekeeper again

yeah, i enjoyed this dude's stuff, and especially with richard youngs. I've kind of fallen off listening to a lot of this kind of thing since leaving glasgow tho. not really interested in the art of fascists at this juncture

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

dopplereffekt? not sure if that's the same thing though

I don't know anything about Prurient's politics; I interviewed him for The Wire back in 2011 and he seemed like a saddo mama's boy more than anything else. I like that 4CD thing he put out the other year, though.

i don't think he's a white supremacist, just a shitty guy

cool posts

a few months ago a good friend who is a southwestern desert state libertarian loaned me a genocide organ box set. i found it to be a bracing aesthetic experience, by which i mean just looking at the track titles and the box "art" was enough for me. i did give it one listen but after 15-20 minutes i was like "boy i sure am glad i spent my youth being down w/ crash worship instead of these guys"

is there a general discussion thread for this type of thing? i had feelings about it but didn't take it to ILM at the time.

and even that turned out to be problematic!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolff

i remember that guy -- i remember learning he was problematic and not being able to enjoy whatever music I had enjoyed (mostly one song iirc). he lived on a commune of some kind? lots of pagan stuff? idk. i'm easily turned off.

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

Feel like this quick list has been given an historical free pass:

The Rolling Stones
David Bowie
Iggy
Bryan Ferry
Lemmy
Joy Division
Siouxsie & The Banshees
Malcolm McLaren
Sex Pistols

https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.20555/title.gunplay-explains-meaning-behind-swastika-tattoo#

TW: photo

oof

https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.20555/title.gunplay-explains-meaning-behind-swastika-tattoo🕸#

TW: photo

boy i sure am glad i spent my youth being down w/ crash worship instead of these guys"

the friend involved w/ the problematic festival was a member of crash worship

and even that turned out to be problematic!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolff

― the late great, Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:47 PM (yesterday)

lol! different guy, but lol.

southwestern desert state libertarian

as numerous as the creosote

ha i was wondering if yr southwestern desert state libertarian Genocide Organ fan was the same one I knew, but ... well, at least they could become friends.

is the 16 Horsepower/Wovenhand guy problematic or just weird? i can't tell...he's verged into neofolk-ish territory

cool...his dark folk thing could just attract that element...