The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

https://fair.org/home/western-media-fall-in-lockstep-for-cheap-trump-rubio-venezuela-aid-pr-stunt/

Learning of Abrams' (public) full CV when it comes to uh foreign misadventures was kinda stunning to me. Shoulda been hung decades ago.

yeah he's a fucking monster, if there was any lingering doubt about what a bad idea US involvement is here, Abrams being part of it should have erased those concerns

can't shake his evil fucking laughter a little over 15 minutes into this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ig0YvJCh5w

I think it's a reasonable proposition that an US backed coup, even with some **gasp** privatization, is a much better alternative than a Russia-backed dictatorship/proper coup that has ripped the country apart for the last few years. I don't see a realistic third alternative anyway, maybe ShariVari has an idea.

I think it's a reasonable proposition that an US backed coup, even with some **gasp** privatization, is a much better alternative than a Russia-backed dictatorship

You're adorable.

Thanks, trying my best. But now to engage with the idea...

I think if you'd read SV's posts you might he noticed he's already spent a good deal of time talking about alternatives to Trump getting a war all of his own and/or Maduro carrying on as before.

Fred, are you familiar with the phrase "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea" or "jumping out the frying pan and into the fire"? That's where ordinary Venezuelans are caught atm.

But now to engage with the idea...

There is no idea to engage with. You're presenting a false dichotomy - just a happy lil' American-backed coup that will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy with some privatization, no biggie. Which would, of course, be all but unprecedented in our history of regime change.

Chavismo comes from a completely different place to Putin. Like, there are social movements behind the thing.

Chavismo comes from a completely different place to Putin. Like, there are social movements behind the thing.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:13 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I would not call what is happening right now 'Chavismo'. I think that ship sailed a long time ago, we all know the social movement has been replaced by an economy that has been in the hands of the military and that the PDVSA is barely in the hands of the people.

If that were so Maduro's vote would've collapsed completely and that just isn't the case.

Stop saying - like Fred was doing - 'we all know' or 'we can all agree'. There isn't going to be any of that.

There is no idea to engage with. You're presenting a false dichotomy - just a happy lil' American-backed coup that will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy with some privatization, no biggie. Which would, of course, be all but unprecedented in our history of regime change.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:12 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think an American backed coup will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy anytime soon. I have made no such claims. Nothing will be resolved quickly. The moment they added Abrams to spearhead the whole thing I lost hope for the liberal democracy with would all wish for Venezuela in this thread. However, I'm just imagining there is quite a decent chance the situation improves under the conditions of an American-backed coup, only because the present is just that horrible and little seem to budge Maduro.

If that were so Maduro's vote would've collapsed completely and that just isn't the case.

Stop saying - like Fred was doing - 'we all know' or 'we can all agree'. There isn't going to be any of that.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:21 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He is polling 20% and was elected fraudulently, and he replaced the entire supreme court with his lackeys. The vote has collapsed.

xp = you should read SVs posts again. The oppotisition is divided and in any case, John Bolton isn't the answer.

Part of the point is that we don't live there and while I may think its not as bad or you may think it can't get any worse ultimately we are all talking about this after the opposition leader's ridiculous action of calling himself president and the likes of Bolton moving in to a coup. Its pure news cycle talk that is built-in from an interventionist politics.

We all live in the West and comfortambly - we can't tell others thousands of miles away how to do things and who to elect, or Maduro must go when the facts aren't straight or at all clear, and the only who is absolutely clear is Fred - and he got that from watching a Venuzuelan film that won a prize in Europe. Its a total joke.

I mean Trump is going around putting some nasty pieces in the courts; the Republicans are committing electoral fraud like there's no tomorrow. This country has deported black people back to Jamaica who have lived here for decades. We can't tell Maduro to step down.

We can't tell Maduro to step down? That pony's already out of the barn.

However, I'm just imagining there is quite a decent chance the situation improves under the conditions of an American-backed coup

Its going to improve for middle-class Venuzuelans and landowners who will be ok with fascism only.

Well to be fair if a Venezuelan would think Trump should step down, I would agree with the Venezuelan.

There is enough fair journalism to know how shitty the situation is.

It's not that I am for interventionism. Is that interventionism already happened in Venezuela in such a large extent that I personally believe it is worth asking ourselves 'should we let that situation go on'? If you think that we should, then that's a fair position. I don't think we should, nor should I think Bolton and Abrams have the best solutions, far from it, just a slightly better alternative to the present.

We can't tell Maduro to step down? That pony's already out of the barn.

― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 10 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Obviously the likes of Fred and Trump will tell Maduro to go - they love shouting and when anyone disagrees they will say they are doing a great job and the problem is YOU. No saving those ppl.

But I think others should take a step back from adventures in Latin America/middle-east because of so-called humanitarian reasons. That stuff is very distorted in the media, and its often caused by sanctions from western governments that are not happy the ppl might want something else. Our system of governance is broken, many of us in these rich countries are sleeping rough and children are in dire poverty. Lets look at ourselves.

Its going to improve for middle-class Venuzuelans and landowners who will be ok with fascism only.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:38 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is Guaido a fascist? A neo-liberal lackey I would accept at this point but fascism is something specific and I will wait for more information to make that claim (if you have it please link it to me).

must say an rud nua of picking one (easy target) person in each thread and petulantly referring everything mockingly back to them without any seeming point and more aggression than wit doesnt fill me with confidence that whatever radical burn-it-all-down social philosophy you're boosting atm is the answer xyzzzzz

Look at how economic loosening has been applied in the likes of Russia. Or the neo-liberal continuum in the UK that has paved the way for Brexit and the rise of insecurity for migrants. I wouldn't be welcoming neo-libs.

Again you can say what you would accept but equally you won't have to live with the consequences if it goes wrong.

xyzzzz specifically doesn’t want to burn it all down - as SV has set out above, the approach that guaido is taking risks (at best) seeming highly dubious and illegitimate and (at worst) civil war

using mexico and uruguay as honest brokers for s good faith negotiated settlement seems like the best way to thread the needle here

he can speak for himself ofc but I’m sure he’d only say “who da fuq is fred”

Apologies for this interruption. I fully admit to knowing very little about politics but I always thought the reason Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea are judged as being so much worse is that they seem to treat their people with a cruelty that Tories and Republicans can only have wet dreams about?

Darragh, do you want me to pull your ban Fred b thread?

it wouldnt be undeserved or anything but yknow i offer the above without rancour

I don't really want to see the guy banned or anything. But if anyone says things like 'sanctions are punishment' or 'lose electability to the coup plotters', or 'fuck parties that have 40% support this is nothing to me' I mean you might want to keep quiet but I don't want to be a saint, maybe you do idk.

cultural catholic man wcis

Whatever you think of the BBC its good they published this transcript of an interview with Maduro.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47211509

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

Rep. Omar asks if Abrams will back genocide in Venezuela like he did Guatemala. He's refusing to answer. She's not taking his BS.

— Sam Husseini (@samhusseini) February 13, 2019

Loved the US is governed by the KKK bit!

lmao @ how much is a kilo of cheese

That Corbyn bit at the end was another good lol

The Center for American Progress weighs in

I worked for Elliott Abrams as a civil servant. He is a fierce advocate for human rights and democracy. Yes, he made serious professional mistakes and was held accountable. I’m a liberal but I’m also fair. We all have a lot of work to do together in Venezuela. We share goals.

— Kelly Magsamen (@kellymagsamen) February 13, 2019

A great rationale for for moving the national capital to Guam and turning inside the Beltway into a lovely pastureland where cows may safely graze.

— Charles P. Pierce (@CharlesPPierce) February 13, 2019

Whatever you think of the BBC its good they published this transcript of an interview with Maduro.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47211509

I think it's shameful they haven't released the video. Reporter got rinsed.

I was thinking whether its normal practice to release a full video of an interview or not? I mean I would encounter this as edited extracts in a wider report at 11pm on newsnight or something, when I used to watch it.

if they thought they'd skewered him it'd be all over newsnight

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n04/tony-wood/the-battle-for-venezuela

Greg Grandin! Good.

the not-at-all-lefty National Post reports:

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro is undergoing the biggest crisis of his tenure, after opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself president and was swiftly backed by countries around the globe, led by the U.S.

In the secret cache displayed by the Maduro government were 19 assault weapons, 118 ammunition cartridges, dozens of military radio antennas and more. Putting on a show for the cameras, the government displayed AR-15 rifles, a Micro Draco semi-automatic pistol and a Colt 7.62 rifle with telescopic sights.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/was-a-u-s-cargo-jet-smuggling-arms-to-rebels-in-venezuela-these-flight-patterns-sure-look-weird

I was thinking last week that what this story needed was Richard Branson popping up out of nowhere with a weird front organisation and agitating to open the border with Colombia...

lol what jokers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/20/pink-floyd-roger-waters-condemns-richard-branson-venezuela-aid-concert

Pink Floyd are...good now?

Another day another centrist rinsed:

Euronews journalist asks President Maduro if he recognizes Venezuela's problems.

Listen to Maduro's answer. pic.twitter.com/5vIEQYVpxb

— MV English (@MV_Eng) February 20, 2019

An extraordinary interview.

I know Elliott. He has been a colleague of mine at the Council on Foreign Relations, and I think that he is a very smart person. I think he is basically a good person and he is somebody who I don’t see as being terribly ideological. I really see him as a foreign-policy professional who has served the country a long time. I think you can certainly attack him for his role in the Iran-Contra affair. I think that’s legitimate. The fact that he did plead guilty in two misdemeanor offenses of misleading Congress, that’s never O.K., but I think it’s unfair of Congresswoman Omar to suggest that he is somehow an enabler or an apologist for genocide, because, in fact, anyone who knows anything about the history of American policy since the nineteen-seventies knows that Elliott has actually been one of the most influential and eloquent voices for putting human rights and democracy front and center in American foreign policy.