I think the reason many hedged one way was that the first two cases were brought by parents and the affected kids didn't really talk about the incidents publicly when they became adults (which is of course their right not to).
now that you have two adults corroborating what happened when they were kids, a little more difficult to say "ahh they have ulterior motives", esp when one of them is Wade Robson.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 26 January 2019 14:18 (five years ago) link
The defences by otherwise reasonable people have always sounded completely deranged - “no, he collected and slept with children in a totally innocent, non-molesty way”. Like listen to yourselves ffs
OTFM
― Οὖτις, Saturday, 26 January 2019 15:53 (five years ago) link
i guess i don't really see what makes enjoying MJ's music while acknowledging his abuse difficult. i can see being queasy about certain of his more obviously megalomaniacal songs, all the "heal the world" bullshit, but that stuff made me gag when it came out. but given the awesome amount of compartmentalization humans can do (every time you bite into a burger, for one thing...) setting his personal actions aside while enjoying "human nature" seems pretty trivial.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy)
i stopped having a personal problem listening to and enjoying his music once he became incapable of taking actions that would hurt other people, but i have also never been sexually abused or assaulted and i understand that others' mileage may vary
― The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:03 (five years ago) link
The way I framed it was "would you give a regular person anywhere near this much benefit of the doubt?" Think we can all understand the feeling of not wanting to hear the creator of something you like has done bad things, but should also recognise that this same instinct leads abusers to believe they can get away with anything, just because they made whatever album / film / book and have everyone telling them they are therefore special.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:03 (five years ago) link
^^^^ime it’s always been accompanied by this weird pop psychology “he was just trying to get back to the childhood he was denied” - but never just to explain his actions, always rather to exonerate him completely - and as you say the same sympathy would never have been extended to your average person who touches up kids
― gray say nah to me (wins), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:28 (five years ago) link
Just read Ben Lee's review in The Guardian and even that is hard to take.
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:29 (five years ago) link
FYI "Ben Lee's review in The Guardian" -> https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jan/25/michael-jackson-documentary-leaving-neverland
― StanM, Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:51 (five years ago) link
ebro the letter (Whiney G. Weingarten)Posted: January 25, 2019 at 11:47:31 PMI read the big Taraborelli MJ book and I walked away feeling like he wasn’t a molester but just ... way ... off ... in ways that were weird. Definitely sounds like this doc is gonna make me rethink that. What a drag.
Are you referring to Untouchable? I read that a couple years ago and came away with the same feeling. The book was pretty unsparing toward MJ otherwise. I don’t remember what year it was written but maybe those earlier weird parent driven accusations were all there was to go on at the time.
― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:56 (five years ago) link
that review...this will be grim
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 26 January 2019 16:58 (five years ago) link
Yeah. Just read it.
― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Saturday, 26 January 2019 17:02 (five years ago) link
Described as “a sensitive boy”, he preferred dance over basketball
He's Australian, I doubt he'd be playing basketball tbh.
― Wee boats wobble but they don't fall down (Tom D.), Saturday, 26 January 2019 18:09 (five years ago) link
The Rolling Stone review similarly doesn't hold back
https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-features/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-doc-sundance-784801/
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 26 January 2019 18:11 (five years ago) link
Cool that as a society we waited til after he was dead to figure this out
― Οὖτις, Saturday, 26 January 2019 18:36 (five years ago) link
He's Australian, I doubt he'd be playing basketball tbh.Friends of mine were on the basketball team in high school, and the Sydney Kings were a pretty huge thing in culture and merch amongst youths at the time*. Just looked it up & Robson’s home team won the championship twice in his time living there, and were in the finals the last year before he moved to America.*not least because they were ~the~ Sydney team, vs 30-odd rugby teams, but
― sans lep (sic), Saturday, 26 January 2019 18:42 (five years ago) link
as a society we waited til after he was dead We figured this out over and over during the last two decades of his life, stans are still going to disbelieve despite this latest documentary
― sans lep (sic), Saturday, 26 January 2019 18:44 (five years ago) link
(xp) Ah right, I was thinking he must have mentioned something about basketball himself in the documentary.
― Wee boats wobble but they don't fall down (Tom D.), Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:04 (five years ago) link
I honestly have not spent much time digging into the MJ accusations, since I had WGW’s take on things, always thinking he was more a deeply fucked up victim and deeply weird than an actual criminal. Obv he was a victim at this be point too, of course...
It’s not surprising at all that his hardcore fans would completely disbelieve it, we live in world where Ted Bundy still has fans who believe he was innocent, the scumbag from lostprophets probably gets fan mail every day, R. Kelly is being railroaded and the girls were “getting something out of it too...”
I just wonder if he was always like that, if any of this shit goes back further than these accusations. I haven’t read any biographies on the dude so idk. From the far outside looking in, he seems to have had it more together at the beginning of his solo success, and then he just rapidly disintegrated personally, professionally, creatively...
― omar little, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:08 (five years ago) link
Obv he was a victim at this be point too, of course...
“...a victim at one point too...”
― omar little, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:09 (five years ago) link
In that thread I linked above ilxors compare MJs behavior w kids to an adult who climbs trees - ie weird but not dangerous or criminal
― Οὖτις, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:12 (five years ago) link
just an Icarus flying too close to the sun
― omar little, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:24 (five years ago) link
or a kelly slater of pedophilia, endlessly riding the barrel, but never gettin truly pitted into the nastiness of it all
― tonga, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:28 (five years ago) link
the scumbag from lostprophets probably gets fan mail every day
a while back i was startled at seeing him on the cover of some true crime magazine on the stand at walmart.
― visiting, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:41 (five years ago) link
confirmation bias : I voted for X so he must be right, I liked Y's records so he must be innocent
― StanM, Saturday, 26 January 2019 19:42 (five years ago) link
looking forward to seeing this, but...I’m surprised there are so many MJ truthers on this site
― k3vin k., Saturday, 26 January 2019 20:48 (five years ago) link
i think we can safely remove the quote marks from this thread's title now
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 26 January 2019 21:32 (five years ago) link
Yeah, no
https://globalnews.ca/news/4890058/michael-jackson-musical-to-hit-broadway-in-2020/
― piscesx, Saturday, 26 January 2019 21:58 (five years ago) link
all hardcore fandom is bizarre, but that there are people, in 2019, sending threats to the director of an anti-MJ movie is just astonishing to me
― mookieproof, Saturday, 26 January 2019 22:36 (five years ago) link
I mean, he was probably the greatest performer of the 20th century
― ebro the letter (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:03 (five years ago) link
Wrong
― Οὖτις, Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:12 (five years ago) link
James Brown
― Οὖτις, Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:14 (five years ago) link
Come on, it's clearly Shakin' Stevens
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:18 (five years ago) link
Bert Williams
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:18 (five years ago) link
how can you all be so wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aH_hS_AVuA
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:34 (five years ago) link
(well, at least until the Netflix Charo documentary, which i hear is a major bummer)
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:35 (five years ago) link
I think the reason people wanted to not believe wasn’t because they didn’t take it seriously, but because they did. The crimes are too reprehensible to square with the idea of the person eho made such great music. Not an “excuse” for overlooking the crimes but an explanation.
― Trϵϵship, Saturday, 26 January 2019 23:46 (five years ago) link
what does great music have to do with being a piece of shit person (or not), though? pretty much all of what we publicly knew about MJ's private life and psyche, even prior to the major revelations about his pedophilic abuse, pointed to a deeply fucked-up person at best. i mean, i found the allegations surprising insofar as such things are always surprising, but him being a great talent didn't factor into that one way or the other.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:10 (five years ago) link
I have known that art can be disconnected from the creator's morality for awhile, it's true
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:12 (five years ago) link
i'm sort of inclined to think that expecting those who make the art you like to be wonderful people is sort of childish.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:17 (five years ago) link
or any particular kind of people at all...
ok but like
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:33 (five years ago) link
what he is accused of is unconscionable. it makes sense ppl would be disturbed to know they were dancing along to music made by someone who did that.
he wasn't accused of being a cheater or a jerk. he has been accused of being a predator.
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:34 (five years ago) link
Is being a murderer more unconscionable than being a child molester? Because I've been known to listen to music by a few of those tbh.
― Wee boats wobble but they don't fall down (Tom D.), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:44 (five years ago) link
i mean
i don't think ppl "shouldn't" enjoy the music
but
it promotes a different kind of relationship to the artist
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:45 (five years ago) link
and the musical "text"
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:46 (five years ago) link
dude
stop
― Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:46 (five years ago) link
we are embodied subjects. art of any kind is interesting to us because people made it. there isn't just "art" and "life" these things are co-implicated
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:47 (five years ago) link
soto, why should i stop?
it's just a reflex for you guys to get annoyed when i am engaging normally with the topic of discussion
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:48 (five years ago) link
Think to yourself.
― Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:48 (five years ago) link
― ebro the letter (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 27 January 2019 00:49 (five years ago) link