Impeach Trump Y/N

is the idea that most forms of government present themselves as already perfect, divinely ordained, and the strength of democracy is that it isn't?

Yeah, that's how I interpret it. 'Perfectible' implies that it's never quite perfect, i.e. it's always in the process of seeking perfection, whereas autocraties claim to have achieved it already. You're right, though, that democracy is often taken, in the Western collective unconscious, to be definitive in and of itself, but this line of argumentation is perhaps a trick used by reactionary forces – they deliberately conflate the status quo with democracy, as though it were impossible to change the former while preserving the latter. Sorry if this comes across as muddled – it's not a topic I'm too familiar with.

You think this idiot destroyed global capitalist democracy?

More like a marker along the road of it's decay

Tho I suspect it's more like a balloon that will inflate and deflate many times, possibly with a burst at the end

Yeah, that makes more sense

re. Derrida, i always linked his thinking on democracy to benjamin’s and the concept of “weak messianism.” The concept holds open a promise that will never be delivered, always deferred, but its being-open is the condition of possibility of progressive change.

I've come to think of the specific government programmes/manifestos of left or "progressive" parties needing to be like this: acknowledging fluidity and progress and always open to further demands/further movement towards economic and social democracy - in fact those demands should always be advancing

Like, the state can't be "fixed" in any sense, and to want to do that is inherently conservative small c

Definitely, treesh, Benjamin is a touchstone here – Derrida explicitly discusses weak messianism in Spectres of Marx.

You bet he does

Impeach him. I don't care if the Senate doesn't convict. A failure to convict will not lead to a sudden explosion in his popularity.

Like, the state can't be "fixed" in any sense, and to want to do that is inherently conservative small c

― have you ever seen a VONC's tears? (Noodle Vague)

yes, but any notion of "progress" must also account for the demands of the people, which are very often small-c conservative. the only way to bring about lasting progressive change is often through duplicity - for instance the augustan project of revolutionary governmental change under the pretense of "restoration". there is no reason for any radical to _not_ cast themselves instead as a "restorer".

^

Sorry meant to one up soto not you

Idk rush, duplicity and strategic compromise haven’t served the left well. It’s put them in a reactive position a lot of the tiem, responding to the new reality the right creates. I like the sanders approach of somewhat naively just laying out the policies that he thinks are better, overton window be damned. It’s worked too—nj just passed a $15 minimum wage

My feeling is that impeachment would have the effect of taking the spotlight off Trump himself and on to the proceedings instead. This would make it harder for him to muddle and confuse. I think if Americans had what we already know stitched together for them without distractions, Trump would be even less popular.

And if the Senate doesn't convict in the face of the evidence -- which will surely include things we don't yet know -- that will be a millstone for those senators and the Republican party.

I'm not a big fan of trying to "outsmart" the electorate either rush but I feel like I'm derailing this thread so I'll maybe pick at this another time somewhere else

I think Trump is already a 2020 millstone. The question is whether he can take any GOP senators down with him.

(Or maybe he'll win and they'll make gains!)

I mean saying "don't impeach him, it won't work and could backfire" just gives the Prez carte blanche to keep breaking the law. If the Repubs were actually holding the fucker accountable, then it would be better to slow down the pace of proceedings. But they aren't and never will.

I don’t think you can predict the effect it will have. But it’s still the right thing.

Yea i mean that's the reason to do it too! Tired of every act having to be measured by what it might mean 2 months from now. All that leads to is capitulation.

The upside of the way he runs things and the state of the country as a whole is that when every day brings a new disaster, time becomes meaningless. No one remember what he did a week ago, let alone a month ago, let alone a year ago. There is no downside to going at him hard, because if anything it slows the clock down and forces him to take some damage. He's like a shark who must keep swimming forward, and if he stops he dies.

We're still at the investigation phase, largely because the last Congress refused to do a proper job of it and Mueller's investigation continues to be a black box except when he drops an indictment here or there. When a coherent, evidence-based and properly corroborated narrative is constructed and out in the open, then it will be time to draw up suitable articles of impeachment for the House to debate and the public to consider. This stuff is serious business and you need a strong scaffolding if you're going to hang a president.

I mean saying "don't impeach him, it won't work and could backfire" just gives the Prez carte blanche to keep breaking the law. If the Repubs were actually holding the fucker accountable, then it would be better to slow down the pace of proceedings. But they aren't and never will.

― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal)

yeah thinking about it the "don't impeach" argument just doesn't hold water. all of these theoretical political considerations are secondary, america's potential future status as a 'failed state' is secondary. there is ample evidence that the president is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors for the house to impeach, sufficient evidence that failure to impeach would in fact constitute dereliction of a professional duty. it might not work, it might backfire, but none of that means that impeachment is a bad idea or that it shouldn't be done.

oh, to clarify, i wasn't arguing for kissinger-style realpolitik, more that "restoration" is just as much a utopian myth as the progressive utopia, and that an effective politician will appeal to both instincts. we're very far from the place where progress can come about by saying "fuck america, we can come up with something better than that".

read anything about Mike Pence and his views on lgbt people and record wrt them and Trump being impeached seems a lot less exciting

As I've pointed out before, if articles of impeachment against Trump were not merely referred to the Senate, but he was successfully removed from office as a result, then the political damage inflicted upon the Republicans would be sufficient to prevent Pence from accomplishing much of his agenda. He'd be a lame duck from day one.

Also it’s not like trump is serving as a liberal voice of reason in the administration.

here's the case that i can see for leaving trump in place: as bad as he is he is equally incompetent at executing his vision. it could be suffering through him two more years will be preferable to putting someone more competent in charge. he seems unable to work within the gov apparatus to effectively promote his agenda. he gets into fights with his subordinates, inspires resistances and undermining of his authority, doesn't fully understand the mechanics of the apparatus he seeks to control -- like i'm not even sure he could start a new war if he wanted one. (nb he could still be a rubber stamp on a military that wanted a particular war but so many were.) this is an [overly] optimistic analysis i admit - it assumes he won't be able to do real serious lasting damage before 2020 because of these deficiencies, and that his failure to effectively run the country won't lead to an exceptional catastrophe either. otoh all this suggests is that you'd rather have trump in office for two more years than two more years of gwb or of cruz or pence or even rubio any of these psychos who have the will and the means to destroy the world not just the will.

if charges emerge against trump that are serious enough to result in his conviction by the full Senate, then not moving forward with impeachment because of the kind of calculations put forward in mordy's post would be both morally wrong, but a profound political misjudgment.

the usual trump v. pence arguments all seem to rest on the idea that a successful impeachment or forced resignation would rest on somewhat ambiguous grounds that would leave the country much as it was prior to trump leaving office. it would not be like that. it would be a political earthquake of the highest magnitude and leave everything in government badly shaken up.

Impeaching Trump = Raise the chance of another republican president in the 2020 election

i think it's at least plausible that president pence post-trump impeachment could more easily start a war than president trump pre-impeachment even taking into account your contention that the gov would be in upheaval presumably some of our well-funded institutions like the military would be coherent and able to act.

Unlike the Gingrich impeachment move, which was motivated mainly to appease the rabid republican base, I'd predict the Democrats under Pelosi will only refer articles of impeachment against Trump to the Senate if they're being pushed to it by a much larger percentage of the electorate, in a range well above 60% in favor of impeachment. If that were true, then the chances of a Republican president in 2020 would be pretty dim.

president pence post-trump impeachment could more easily start a war than president trump pre-impeachment

imo, an unelected president from a thoroughly discredited administration would require a damned strong causus belli to bring the nation into a major war. how easily a "pre-impeachment Trump" could drag us into a war would partly depend on which stage of the process is being defined as "pre-impeachment". if serious criminal charges backed by sufficient credible evidence are already known to and widely accepted by the public, that's much different than our present state of affairs.

No, it's useless, it won't get rid of the people who voted/supported/enabled this.

Cool, the pro-gun debate strategy

Trump is incompetent at anything but playing the media. Pence does not have that skill. I'll take Pence. Who, by the way, can probably also be impeached by rights.

And as of 3 weeks ago, we were at 40% for impeachment. But just as support for the wall has increased since the shutdown, so will impeachment support once the trial has begun.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

if there is evidence of impeachable things, he should be impeached.

emoluments seems like a slamdunk to me but only in my nonlegal ignorance

I do think every future Dem president (if there are any) will be impeached as a result

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Pelosi gave a solid no today

the dream is over

"It divides the nation." erm...

things can always get more divided

and they will

Crowded House thread is elsewhere

hey now

trying to catch the deluge in a paper cup

I never really understood how it was possible to successfully impeach in the first place

only 20 months till he can be voted out anyway. Seems a more reliable method of removal (though at this point I've lost all track of what is up and what is down)

As I get older & lose faith in the world, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets re-elected.

Pareene: "Democrats who preemptively declare impeachment off the table are mistakenly (or intentionally) conflating one possible end result of the impeachment process for the process itself."

https://newrepublic.com/article/153629/democrats-hoping-dont-understand-impeachment-entails

McConnell is much worse

Yeah, that seems very much the dominant way of thinking in the Sanders camp, completely the opposite of the Biden camp. Biden is the "let's get Trump out of the way so we can get back to normal" guy. Bernie is "normal was already fucked up and Trump just made it worse."

"I wish the Kaiser was back. In those days we had order."

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c-bjhCRegw4/Wd3xpD7r96I/AAAAAAAAX7M/DfIk2u3KpPsVhQdOTmvare7kgpTfm89mgCLcBGAs/s1600/Cabaret-Joel-Grey-Bob-Fosse-1972.JPG

this thread is an abomination, fuck, people. if youre talking about about building a better system under this constitution you start with the tools to fix shit it gives. in this case you got two- impeachment and elections.

you gotta do both.

they can do both. abandoning that fight reinforces that russian oligarchy is the new normal both economically and politically.

low info ppl have little time and less inclination to get fucking woke, they want a side that fuckin wins for them and fucking fights for them.

there’s a reason you must fight for rights—people, even dumb ones, treat it as either waiver or forfeit.

the shitshow made it an even clearer record what GOP is. it was an expected outcome. it’s both worth it as a pursuit of dismissal and as a demonstration of moral and legal competence.

if there’s an assumption that waiving impeachment would have produced a better environment— and also time— for the bernie Vanguard of the Millennials to develop and sell his/their better policy— I DOUBT THAT SHIT— YOU SHOULD BE GETTIN THAT DONE ANYWAY.

Hammer doors and stay positive— “voter, you could have it so much better, it doesn’t have to be this.”

Inasmuch as we all still need a candidate we all should be doing this.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT.

thread should be locked for a “Re-impeach Trump y/n”

i agree with most of that, but there is 0.0% chance democrats will impeach trump again. if he's impeached again, it will be by republicans (there is a 0.000000001% chance of that happening)

The House can just conduct their own version of the half dozen simultaneous Benghazi investigations without proceeding to impeachment. Unless they turn up undeniable evidence of a high crime sufficiently bad that impeachment looks like a dunk.

yeah odds for reimpeachment happening are super low from here

one thing age and brain injury has given me is “a lot of shit is IMPOSSIBLE til it gets done.”

This rambling speech is true stream-of-consciousness something-or-other, and I have no idea anymore whether it's good or bad for him or nothing at all. Early on he said the stock market took off in the weeks leading up to the election because it was clear he was going to win, then a few minutes later he remembered that everybody knew Hillary was going to win.

Still think the only way to stop Trump is to install a saboteur at every DC McDonald's

He's spent the last three minutes talking about Bobby Richardson. The fact that, I'm guessing, most of you don't know who that is, that sums up this whatever-it-is very well.

Trump turned his praise to congressman Steve Scalise, who was severely wounded when a shooter opened fire in 2017 on a Republican baseball practice.

The president marveled at how upset Scalise’s wife was when she learned he was shot. “A lot of wives wouldn’t give a damn,” Trump said. “She was a total mess.”

Trump's frame of reference for wives is p limited to be fair

Mitt Romney remembers he represents only safely Republican state in which majority of voters voted against Trump

— 'Weird Alex' Pareene (@pareene) February 5, 2020

CNN: "Unscripted, vindictive, at times profane..."

'A lot of wives tell their husbands every day that they hope they die in their sleep or are murdered in the bathtub by their young son Barron, but not Mrs. Scalise.'

As an empty gesture that works more for his political future it was fine as far as it went. To the extent it was not necessary it was mildly surprising. To the extent it was girded by statements of faith, it was annoying to this audience tho possibly true.

^lol mitts not trumpf

lol OL

Trump's speech today:

https://i.imgur.com/ecKua6K.jpg

Imbleach Trump Y/N

he's telling people to attack state government with guns and drink bleach, no bigs

movin' to the country
gonna drink a lot of bleaches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sumb3GYuAT8

i used to think that Trump ending his first and only term calling for some kind of uprising of his chuds (and them obeying) was at the far end of my eunlikely nightmares, but it's inevitable now, isn't it?

he already did call for an uprising (Liberate the swing states!), they just didn't respond very forcefully. hopefully that will continue

Trump pwns the drug dealer immigrants. Crowd cheers. Trump pwns the libtard Democrats. Crowd cheers. Trump pwns the MSM. Crowd cheers. Trump calls on crowd to take up arms and shoot their governor. Some half-hearted cheers, crowd looks at each other questioningly, mostly stays put.

https://i.imgur.com/Lwq7oCU.png

that's the entirety of a blog post by Jim Jordan on The Federalist, a couple days ago.

what can you even say.

Jim Jordan is possibly the dumbest member of congress, and that's saying something considering Nunes is there.

This is just the usual strategy of claiming that whatever you want to be true is true and letting tribalism do the rest.

Counterpoint: Get Fucked