pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

xp i don't have any of those, doubt anyone does, doesn't matter bc he's good now

I think he's disliked because he uses phrases like, "It was the height of the chillwave era."

he founded Pitchfork.
― grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:06 (forty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i remember the height of the chillwave era well, winter had just come

it's not Ryan S but this is my "favorite" review from PFM:

Being the soulless, square, suburban son that I am, I can honestly say that I really haven't paid attention to rap music in a long while-- in fact, nothing's really made an impression on me since Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet. De La Soul, Schooly D, and the Beastie Boys' brilliant Paul's Boutique still hold a place in my Volkswagen hood ornament- covered honky heart, as well as NWA's hilarious and brutal Straight Outta Compton.

It seems rap, like most mainstream pop music, is all about making money, and just takes itself too damn seriously-- the industry's basically become a fucking zoo overrun with bellicose Uzi- toting hucksters possessing nary an ounce of talent for anything except shameless pimping. Hardly anyone seems intelligent enough anymore to touch upon what rap seemed to be all about in the first place-- scathing humor, urgent street- savvy social commentary, and beats that could still make even the stiffest ass wiggle. Then, just hours ago, I popped in the Wiseguys' The Antidote. Rap's saving grace may be upon us, people-- it's just the right blend of Miles Davis cool, warm funked- up beats, social awareness with an edgy sense of humor, and a plain ol' old school sense of fun.

Sure, I mean, the old school rappers were notorious sexists sometimes, too; but, hey so was Axl Rose, people. And plenty of cash- horny ho's like Sheryl Crow and Lucy Kaplansky now cover "Sweet Child O' Mine" like it's goddamn "Scarborough Fair." So I'll ask you, general public, what the fuck happened to Ice-T, Ice Cube, LL Cool J, the Geto Boys, and the Public Enemies of the world? And who the fuck was that overstuffed Notorious B.I.G. trash- bag and why should I give a shit that he's dead? Brotha Michael just don't understand, I guess.

Now, if I may be self- indulgent and autobiographical for a moment, I witnessed a strange rap- related phenomenon as an adolescent. During my freshman year in high school, I was forced to attend a public high school in Texas with a student body consisting of around 1,050 upper- middle class caucasians, heaped on top of the low rung of the school's socio- economic ladder: an introverted middle class white boy (me), a black kid named Chucky, and an outcast Latino named Lester. Now, because of an unfulfilled jock past, my father forced my wimp ass to play all sports-- including basketball. This meant being forced to mingle and travel with a bunch of snotty, pigmentally- deficient jocko homos, all of whom spent every waking moment attempting to live out what they felt to be the Black Experience.

Well- supplied by their rich parents, all of my peers were clothed in the latest Adidas regalia, custom NBA- quality sports wear, Nike Airs, etc. They had the jam boxes and Walkmans ablast, bobbing their heads arrythmically to Kurtis Blow, Run DMC, Cameo, and Oran "Juice" Jones-- the soundtrack to their adolescent daydreams of being nubian warriors spawned from the Ghetto streets. In the halls of that whitewashed suburban school, it wasn't uncommon to witness a group of upscale polo- shirted mama's boys form an adoring circle around an ambitious, well- heeled rhythmically- challenged kid attempting to breakdance like someone from the cast of "Breakin'," "Beat Street," "Krush Groove" or the other worm- bustin' films of the day. It was both sad and humorous, really.

What's my point? Well, after childhood experiences like the ones described above, I think it's understandable why I've always looked at rap music with a strange, paradoxical attraction/ aversion. But after an extremely circuitous route in getting to the point, I'll return to the real subject here: the Wiseguys. They bring a sense of fun, creative wordplay, a legitimate experimentalist bent, and excitement in general back to rap and hip-hop that I've really missed. I mean the dope shit just don't stop y'all. "Ho-tel, mo-tel, holiday inn..." oops, sorry. I can't help but marvel at the ingenious layered stream of beats and sounds these guys effortlessly mesh together.

Check out the Zeppelin- esque overtones on "Face the Flames." Or groove to "Cowboy '78" where they astutely sample the quirky chants from Ennio Morricone's "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" theme, while also slipping in a nice little flamenco guitar passage every now and then. In this song, as is the case with most of their songs, the sound layers just keep building and expanding in density and diversity as the beat steadily rolls on 'til the final climactic end. "Cowboy '78" is probably the funkiest western rap theme you've ever heard. That is, of course, unless you're a devotee of white Middle America's favorite non- threatening unfunky homeslice, Will Smith, and his hardcore rap smash "Wild Wild West."

On "The Grabbin' Hands," the guys even manage to reference Depeche Mode's "Everything Counts" and make it groove in a context that's catchy as hell. They're lyrical acrobats, too. Check it out: "You ain't hot/ No matter how much gold ya got/ ...Crack vials/ They line the aisles/ Where I'm from/ Some brothas get wild grabbin' guns/ So I'm stabbin' one/ With my lyrical machete." And they pull at my heartstrings on the lounge-rap of "The Executives," with sampled vibraphone and some breezy Hammond organ. "Start the Commotion," boasts some of the most standout guitar sound byte sampling since the Geto Boys swiped that stunning soul- drenched riff on 1991's "Mind Playing Tricks on Me."

The Antidote forces my rigid white bones into motion, moving and shaking my skeletal structure and posterior in ways I hadn't previously thought possible. The Wiseguys' hip-hop hearts are definitely in the right place. They lay it down jazzy and smooth, baby, with just a little sprinkle of toxic humor on top. It's not exclusive stuff, either, and just when you thought everything worth sampling had already been stolen a hundred times over, they continually surprise your jaded ass.

The bubbling sonic brew on The Antidote culls its ingredients from so many varied sources, it's nothing short of astonishing. Sure, there'll always be the annoying, self- conscious white hipsters who make it a point to listen to this kind of thang just for shallow, extrinsic purposes-- like putting on a show for friends just to seem attuned to cultures more rich in musical tradition than their own. But, in the end, so what? Good music is good music. Who or whatever the hell you are, go out and discover the Wiseguys, and get down wid' da def dope hype tip, boyee. And word up, too. Sorry, readers, bear with me. My mental archive of hip-hop slang hasn't been updated since, like, 1987.

-Michael Sandlin

his writing is bad and his opinions were terrible

It's definitely strange that Pitchfork became what it is now partially based on the "strength" of those horrible '90s reviews.

Like if you breeze thru the first few issues of Rolling Stone, they are not that badly written and you can tell why RS's voice got people's attention.

my hatred is entirely personal pls fuck off flops

― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 3:33 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know i'm being petty and boring! but this dude made me indirectly miserable!

― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 3:36 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i was calling phil's reason boring (i don't think pitchfork is bad, therefore i don't think schreiber is bad) (hating the site for the late 90s/early 00s era is a really boring zombie opinion tho). your reasons are obvs valid to me, especially if he was a dick in person. tbf the music u write about is not exactly in high score pitchfork territory from a branding pov, and publishing your writing (regardless of scores, which are for precocious teenagers with social anxiety) is one of the best things they've done in recent years imo

It's true that many of Pitchfork's early reviews were badly written, but some of the more "creative" efforts also felt kind of fresh and audacious to me as a college kid looking for intel on new indie-rock records. I remember excitedly showing someone the 3.4 review of Stereolab's Cobra and Phases Group... -- I loved that album and thus disagreed with the score, but I found the writing funny and clever. (It barely talked about the music.)

I think I've met Schreiber a couple of times, though I only remember the first encounter, which I believe was in 2001:

My brother briefly interned for the site, and one night Ryan Schreiber came over to drop something off and ended up drinking a beer on our porch and enthusing about how Dismemberment Plan was like the Future of Indie Rock, like in the wake of Pavement's break-up, this is what was next.

― Zsa Zsa Gay Bar (jaymc), Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:09 AM (seven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was an era in which consistently publishing on trustworthy servers honestly went a long way

From 2000-02, I worked for a (now long-defunct) site that published new reviews every weekday, in multiple genres, largely by professional reviewers (I don't know if those writers were happy with what they were paid, but that's a different story!). Whenever I would land on Pfork, I thought it was weird little site with bad reviews. But clearly it was built for the long haul, and had the right "business model."

What site was that? As I remember it, in the early 00's there weren't many indie rock music review websites around that updated with the same frequency and featured multiple contributors who had different styles but with a shared enthusiasm and something like a sensibility.

I think Ryan probably deserves credit for realizing his limitations and hiring the right people to take the site where it needed to go.

xp - Sonicnet.com (it wasn't indie-rock focused, and it didn't have anything like the Pfork "sensibility" -- it was more in the vein of a "professional" music news & reviews site -- which is probably why it wasn't built to last past the dot-com era. MTV bought it and ran it a few years before shutting it down. We did early Internet radio, too.)

I think you are right and I agree, but it doesn't exactly make for a glowing epitaph.

xp

i was calling phil's reason boring

I was making a joke, ftr. I may dislike individual articles Pitchfork publishes but overall I think the site's existence has been a very good thing. Many others disagree, obviously, and view Schreiber as an Enemy of the People for ever even starting the thing.

Sonicnet.com (it wasn't indie-rock focused, and it didn't have anything like the Pfork "sensibility" -- it was more in the vein of a "professional" music news & reviews site

launched in 1994, for what it's worth, as was addicted to noise, the news/magazine site with which sonicnet merged a couple years later. both had indie-rockish sensibilities, though they covered more than that. by 2000, they were already mtv properties.

(i worked there both pre- and post-mtv.)

it was an era in which consistently publishing on trustworthy servers honestly went a long way

this is still true.

who are you, fcc? I probably know you irl

(yes, the MTV buyout happened shortly before I joined)

As I remember it, in the early 00's there weren't many indie rock music review websites around that updated with the same frequency and featured multiple contributors who had different styles but with a shared enthusiasm and something like a sensibility.

― o. nate, Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:11 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actively sought them out so i remember there being many. of course they weren't good but neither was pfork at the time

my only interaction with ryan schreiber was on twitter, when i was like 20 or something and i suggested a game changer for his company would be to randomly give an album the score of 10.1 to dispense with the toxic idea that an album could be "perfect" or that "perfection" was even a noble goal. he responded with something like "..."

anyway, rest in hell, monster

who are you, fcc? I probably know you irl

we most definitely crossed paths back then. real names'd be proof but i do treasure my relative anonymity here :)

lol xp

this schreiber BS has been on my facebook feed all day and frankly i'm shocked than anyone gives a shit.

btw thank u flops it occurred to me after i posted that that my enmity might be misdirected and i'm sorry

i am probably being *too* mad itt and projecting a lot, i've just felt a lot of... discouragement in the past year, from various sources

some of it probably more perceived than real! etc.

we most definitely crossed paths back then. real names'd be proof but i do treasure my relative anonymity here :)

ok, I'll assume you're M1chael Snyd3r! ;)

lol

It's definitely strange that Pitchfork became what it is now partially based on the "strength" of those horrible '90s reviews.

― billstevejim, Tuesday, January 8, 2019 5:04 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he can reduce the scores on my album reviews in hell
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 1:42 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just wanted to hear some stories about him getting drunk and turning everyone's submitted 8+ scores into 6.5s or something
― Evan, Tuesday, January 8, 2019 3:45 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've always wondered about this. If every writer is pitching albums that they're into, isn't there gonna be some score inflation happening naturally, because every album is reviewed by the person who would give it the highest possible score.
isn't part of the editor's job to re-establish the bell curve?

No offense to sonicnet.com or Addicted to Noise, but looking at random captures from 2001 or so via the Wayback Machine, it's not hard to see why Pitchfork survived and they didn't. For one thing, Addicted to Noise is still sticking to the concept of "issues" with a periodic (less than daily) release cycle. I think one thing that Schreiber "got" earlier than most was that "issues" don't make sense in the always-on Internet media landscape, and that the way to build a habit is by offering readers something new every day. Also, it looks like sonicnet.com was trying to cover everything under the sun whereas early Pitchfork was relentlessly "underground" focused. It was the sense of a community apart from the mainstream that was a big draw. Also, the graphic design is better.

I've always wondered about this. If every writer is pitching albums that they're into, isn't there gonna be some score inflation happening naturally, because every album is reviewed by the person who would give it the highest possible score.
isn't part of the editor's job to re-establish the bell curve?

― enochroot, Tuesday, January 8, 2019 5:36 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know i brought it up but can we not talk about this

xp - That's kind of what I meant by why Pfork's "narrowcasting" model was probably best suited for survival in the long run. I don't know how Sonicnet may have fared if MTV hadn't bought it and then, after the dot-com crash, decided it wasn't worth keeping the lights on... but I don't know of any equivalent now for what Sonicnet was at its peak (a wide-ranging, multi-genre music hub), so I assume it wouldn't have survived in that form, and certainly not at that scale. I miss having a site like that to visit, where you can be informed of what's happening in other parts of the music world beyond your particular niche, and maybe get turned on to other stuff too. But "niche" turned out to be key to online success, I guess.

also this is probably an unpopular opinion but i don't give a shit about bell curves or brands which are largely incoherent to me to begin with, i care about enthusiasm and craft, my priorities are not other ppl's priorites, plus the scoring system is a shitty system to begin with xp

I don't know of any equivalent now for what Sonicnet was at its peak (a wide-ranging, multi-genre music hub), so I assume it wouldn't have survived in that form, and certainly not at that scale

I think in the early days of the internet no one quite new what the new media landscape would look like, and there were some ambitious visions of things like that. Not too many people worried about where the money was going to come from (witness the dot-com boom). Then it turned out that people wouldn't pay for content on the internet, and the brave new world of high-quality, internet-supported content never materialized. People who expected to make a living producing content gradually realized the internet wasn't going to provide that, and the big professionally-managed companies moved on. What was left was sites run by lifers and true believers (in the best case) or politically-motivated cranks (in the worst case). I think Schreiber falls into the first camp.

That seems to sum it up well. I def respect Pfork as a "labor of love" (even if, initially, just a love of getting free CDs!) that stayed the course and found a path to improvement and profitability, etc. Like a hardworking indie rock band, man... :P

I'm not an objective witness, but the writing improved around 2008 when it expanded its purview beyond indie.

The interesting thing is that I never realized how bad the writing was back in the beginning, because that was still the era where every city had one or two free weeklies which were heavily music-focused, and it was no worse than most of the writing in those.
It was only once they starting purging the old review that I realized how much better that writing had become over the years.
(although the recent Greta Van Fleet review did make me a bit nostalgic for the old style)

No offense to sonicnet.com or Addicted to Noise, but looking at random captures from 2001 or so via the Wayback Machine, it's not hard to see why Pitchfork survived and they didn't. For one thing, Addicted to Noise is still sticking to the concept of "issues" with a periodic (less than daily) release cycle.

yes and no. atn started as a monthly webzine, quickly added a daily music news feed, and in its last few years was updating the news throughout the day while stubbornly hanging on to that monthly zine, which is where the reviews had their home. 2001 was the bitter end for all of it. if atn/sonicnet has an editorial legacy, it's the very idea of daily, reported music news, which no one else was doing except for the much cheesier allstar music news, which was owned by cdnow, and which i'm guessing no one here has heard of.

Also, it looks like sonicnet.com was trying to cover everything under the sun whereas early Pitchfork was relentlessly "underground" focused. It was the sense of a community apart from the mainstream that was a big draw.

that's basically true, though that happened in stages, too. sonicnet was "underground" "community." atn brought in a classic rockist flavor, determined to cover the daily comings and goings of guided by voices, the wu-tang clan and stone temple pilots with equal zeal. the literally-everything-under-the-sun concept was mtv's idea, an attempt to extend the mtv brand to a hundred new frontiers simultaneously. they hired a zillion people to do it and it was, yeah, a terrible idea. sonicnet/atn had basically signed to a major label way too early. and they picked the wrong major label.

o. nate otm.

treesh, I found yr tweet

https://www.twitter.com/Stacey_Blyth89/status/572888844355436544

they hired a zillion people to do it

Like yours truly, lol! It was a fun time for a little while (until the layoffs started).

yep, that's me. stacey blyth

This will probably be dismissed as conspiracy shit, maybe rightly so, but anyone else get the feeling that with Mark R and Ryan gone in fairly quick succession that something probably went wrong with the relationship with Conde? Idk, feels like there’s more to this than just ‘it was time to move on.’

MTV.com was itself doing daily, reported music news in the late '90s which made ATN redundant

it's not "conspiracy shit." at conde nast, everyday is a new adventure to put it mildly

xp Yeah my understanding/impression was that MTV bought Sonicnet (and used the same content for MTV.com and VH1.com), because it was a “better mousetrap” version of what they were already trying to do; but sounds like fcc has deeper roots and knows more.

yes mtv.com was doing daily music news and d'oh for overlooking that in my last post. sonicnet was a way better mousetrap, and we taught mtv a lot of stuff and they taught us some stuff too, two very different worlds, and in the end we were indeed redundant because their name was on the door and they weren't all that interested in extending their brand; they liked it just where it was.

(i wound up elsewhere at mtv networks and i'm a big fan of the company in general, for reasons having little to do with that particular experiment. and i still will maintain that sonicnet/atn's late-'90s news model was influential in a number of ways. now back to your regularly scheduled pitchfork thread.)

I’m gonna take you the matt- y es I will, fcc - and I’m gonna figure out who you are! and I’m not gonna handle with care-as the traveling wilburys might say!