The Ian Curtis memorial thread

In the commentary version of Twenty Four Hour Party People, (the actual) Tony Wilson talks about his interpretation of punks using Nazi imagery. His version is much better articulated than Siouxsie's, but it's essentially the same thing: shock those who are susceptible to such reactions, simply because you can.

Not sure it was really about "shock the olds" in the case of Curtis though. There are clearly a few songs that show a fascination for Nazi violence and degredation (They Walked In Line, that one with the long quote from House of Dolls, Warsaw I think?, Atrocity Exhibition etc). And I think there's also a tie-in with the nihilistic romanticism of the Nazis (Decades, which embodies that, was originally called The Iron Cross)

Atrocity Exhibition is just cribbed from Ballard, surely?

and nothing to do with Nazis as far as I remember

My fiancee pointed out tonight that "blood of Christ on their skins" and "one-sided trials" could take on really dark connotations if one considers Curtis's Nazi fascination. Hope it wasn't his intention (and it probably wasn't).

(lines from "Wilderness")

xpost

Atrocity Exhibition takes its title but not much else from the Ballard book. The lyrics themselves seem to have a concentration camp vibe

first verse of atrocity exhibition seems to directly refer to the asylum tourism of the 17th and 18th centuries

Asylums with doors open wide
Where people had paid to see inside
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, "I still exist"

second verse seems to refer to gladiatorial combat

In arenas he kills for a prize
Wins a minute to add to his life
But the sickness is drowned by cries for more
Pray to God, make it quick, watch him fall

last two verses are a bit more opaque and there is definitely something of a concentration camp vibe to the third verse

You'll see the horrors of a faraway place
Meet the architects of law face to face
See mass murder on a scale you've never seen
And all the ones who try hard to succeed

And I picked on the whims of a thousand or more
Still pursuing the path that's been buried for years
All the dead wood from jungles and cities on fire
Can't replace or relate, can't release or repair
Take my hand and I'll show you what was and will be

from hooky's book

ah yes, the old "art is not political" defense

Re: "Atrocity Exhibition", it's always struck me as a close relative of the United States of America song, "The American Metaphysical Circus".

But, wow, yes, Sven Hassel books were everywhere in the 70s. Probably only the Richard Allen Skinhead/Suedehead were as widely read.

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Yep, agree with your analysis there. I didn't mean to say Atrocity Exhibition is explicitly Nazi-related but I do think this fascination for public torture and punishment is somehow related to his interest in Nazi imagery

I think I read also that Curtis saw the movie Cabaret a dozen times or something, that might also play into the whole 1930s aesthetic of Joy Division (severe haircuts, trench coats etc)

... Sven Hassel, who only died in 2012! (xp)

There was definitely a strange kind of Nazi/fascist chic thing going on in the 70s which predated punk, and seems to have been more about style, fashion and eroticism - which surely influenced Siouxsie Sioux's look - which you can trace to arthouse/semi-arthouse movies like "The Damned", "The Night Porter" and, not much remembered now but significant at the time, "Salon Kitty". All of which are Italian, interestingly enough.

... and then there's Bowie's Nazi salute @ Victoria Station, Bowie moving to Berlin, Bowie prancing about as a Prussian in "Just a Gigolo".

Wow unfamiliar w Hassel. What a weird story.

fwiw the swastikas on the rocket from the tombs gig poster are as far as I know related to the headliner Electric Eels

(xp) You're American, that's why.

(xp) Yeah, the Electric Eels def. used the swastika to annoy people, annoying people was their whole shtick.

I mean yeah they had a song that's basically just the phrase I See A N-word over and over

Yep Bowie is definitely in the mix there. He had that whole 1940s look going in his Berlin years which probably influenced Joy Division. Kraftwerk Man Machine look probably an influence too. Although Kraftwerk is more about what came just before the Nazis, nostalgia for the pre-Nazi world

Sparks too

Sparks, not really, that was more obviosuly jokey, plus didn't people suspect they were Jewish all along?

(xp) Absolutely, though I'm not sure how adept some random tossers from Macclesfield were at recognizing nostalgia for the pre-Nazi world when they saw it tbh.

Idk I wasnt there obviously, I thought Ron’s leering hitlerstache schtick and songs like Girl From Germany ruffled some feathers

I've really enjoyed reading the recent posts in this thread

on this subject I often think of the lyrics to Walked in Line, which doesn't seem sympathetic to nazis, while being interested in them:

<i>All dressed in uniforms so fine,
They drank and killed to pass the time,
Wearing the shame of all their crimes,
With measured steps, they walked in line.</i>

forgive my coding but you get the point

In more recent years Bryan Ferry was on the Nazis look sharp train.

on this subject I often think of the lyrics to Walked in Line, which doesn't seem sympathetic to nazis, while being interested in them:

oh definitely. Nazis are an interesting topic! Why wouldn't someone be interested in them? They're like cults and serial killers ... aspects of humanity at its worst.

I like most of Joy Division's output, but the early punkier stuff I like best. "An Ideal For Living" is an all-time favorite EP.

Have not read any of Ian's political essays.

Hey, I've been getting into Motorhead lately you don't think Lemmy was into anything proble-oh jesus christ

Nazis are definitely an interesting topic! I am fascinated by them. I have also never felt compelled to cosplay in Nazi regalia or deliberately make people wonder if I was maybe a Nazi. Those activities go a bit beyond being "interested" and cross the line into "asshole" territory imo

you're also not a 20 year old in 1977 manchester? I'm not sure there's any worth in staking the claim that your less of an asshole than Ian Curtis.

https://external-preview.redd.it/1OLj4ZYhUO9Ewtf68UPruKbKpOY5sCQQlYbThrr4xVA.gif?format=png8&s=a012f22b2392e05f9d65a95701809f6c1536457a

I think it's weird that 40 years later people still make lame excuses for it, is all.

I also think it's interesting that there wasn't really a similar current in the US, where we also had a generation of parents that fought the Nazis and constantly went on and on about it, but I don't really remember many baby boomers flirting with Nazi iconography just to piss them off. The Americans of that generation that flirted with Nazi iconography (the aforementioned Asheton, Dee Dee Ramone, etc.) weren't trying to annoy their parents, that was not their goal. They had genuine sympathies with Nazis/Germany ("little German boy, being pushed around...")

lol moodles

Electric Eels didn't have genuine sympathies with Nazis.

I don't think people are excusing it, it was dumb, most of them stopped doing it. Would Ian Curtis have further developed his nazi intrigue into a career as an actual nazi? We'll never know. But they fucked around with the iconography for an EP and a year or two and moved beyond it. Not sure what the point of endlessly debating it is, when Ian's not here to defend his choices.

well my original post was just about trying to tease out what his actual politics were, since they're obscured by a lot of hagiography and I can't really tell what they were based on his work with JD. the more general Nazi trope discussion spun off from there, I'm not in control here.

The Americans of that generation that flirted with Nazi iconography (the aforementioned Asheton, Dee Dee Ramone, etc.) weren't trying to annoy their parents, that was not their goal. They had genuine sympathies with Nazis/Germany ("little German boy, being pushed around...")

Bollocks.

I don't even know whether Ian Curtis's parents were old enough to fight the Nazis, tbh.

Asheton just seemed like he was a jerk. Dee Dee's angle (which is p clear from "Today Your Love, Tomorrow the World") is obviously sympathetic to hapless Germans being pawns of Nazi machinery. I don't think Dee Dee was a Nazi by any means, but he wasn't writing that song to piss off his German forebears, he was expressing empathy for their situation.

OK, you got us, the joke is on us.

I think there's more to it than that:

This song was written by Dee Dee Ramone about growing up in Germany and being bullied (...) Dee Dee was also bullied when he moved to the US for being of German descent as discussed in the documentary, “End of the Century”.

https://genius.com/Ramones-today-your-love-tomorrow-the-world-lyrics

so far the consensus of this thread seems to be that a) Ian Curtis' actual politics are a bit inscrutable (aside from the oft-repeated Thatcher-voting anecdote) and b) the Nazi stuff was youthful idiocy, attempts at being "provocative"

xp

I do remember in elementary kids def drawing swastikas on stuff as a sorta shock thing, often alongside a pentagram, anarchy symbol also (weirdly) the Dead Kennedys DK symbol was popular even though i'm not sure anyone in my small farm town had ever actually heard them, just the name Dead Kennedys was known

haha yeah I def recall that kind of thing

also OZZY with the Z's having those little cross bars through them

the Van Halen logo

I guess now we're just listing things that were easy for kids do doodle while bored in school

so far the consensus of this thread seems to be that a) Ian Curtis' actual politics are a bit inscrutable (aside from the oft-repeated Thatcher-voting anecdote) and b) the Nazi stuff was youthful idiocy, attempts at being "provocative"

xp

― Οὖτις, Friday, January 4, 2019 9:54 AM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i wouldn't call his politics inscrutable. if his widow is to be believed he was a strong supporter of the tories with vehement anti-immigration views. he was a right-wing conservative.