The Ian Curtis memorial thread

yeah, definite alt-right vibes

was that before or after Devo founded the MRA

xp

search results on the internet (as you might expect) are all over the place - you have leftists (and fellow bandmates like Morris) defending him as actually being anti-fascist, actual Nazis/racists being all "what's the big deal" or "YOU BET, ONE OF US!"

it's always rubbed me the wrong way and I've never been that huge a fan, but it does come off as in the lineage of Ron Asheton, Dee Dee Ramone, Lemmy, Nico, etc. Nazi-apologias disguised as "shock tactics" or "intellectual curiosity" or whatever. tbf Nazis *are* pretty fascinating, but to traffick in imagery simply to provoke seems at best to be sympathetic to fascism.

the most sympathetic angle that I've heard that seems like it could hold water is that as baby boomers, children of the greatest generation, growing up in the stultifying cultural climate of post-war provincial britain, and then being into this supposed great cultural rupture and rebellion of punk, nazi imagery was them thumbing their noses at their parents' generation, bratty transgressive posturing and nothing more.

im not hugely sympathetic to that myself

yeah I've heard that too, usually combined with a "youthful indiscretion" defense, and proferred re: Siouxsie, Sid Vicious et al parading their Nazi armbands

yes to shock tactics and trafficking in imagery and provoking as was pretty popular in 1978 or so but I think the actually lyrics among other things leans more towards morbid fascination than sympathy.

Pere Ubu too. It was quite popular.

hasn't this been discussed somewhere here before?

not terribly sympathetic either, like "ooh my 'orrible parents when will they shut up about how their friends all died to defeat fascism *rmde*" just seems like entitled bullshit

xp

Pere Ubu seems like a different thing

actually thinking Rocket From the Tombs
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/13/6b/9b136b1e3714eb6b8f65745d893729bb.jpg

oy

(as in oy gevalt)

"ooh my 'orrible parents when will they shut up about how their friends all died to defeat fascism *rmde*"

tbh I think this dates back to:

[Man on Train: I fought the war for your sort.
Ringo Starr: I bet you're sorry you won.

at least...

isn't the punchline of that joke on... Ringo? because of what a disappointment he must be to the elder generation?

nah it's cheeky young lads ribbing the olds IMO

my point is more that kids were *already* sick of hearing about it in 1964!

yeah well the olds were right and the young'uns were wrong

yeah I should clarify that the only good response I can imagine to "why did you wear a swastika in 1977" is "because I was a stupid kid"

guy was dead by 23. It's unfortunate that we can't ask him now.

well, I haven't read any particularly convincing mea culpas from Hooky or Sumner fwiw

Does anyone know much about his religious beliefs? I've been a bit curious. There are a lot of often p intense Biblical references in JD lyrics.

and here's the still alive Siouxsie Sioux:

“It was an anti-mums and dads thing. We hated older people always harping on about Hitler – we showed him – and that smug pride. It was a way of watching someone like that go completely red-faced.” She goes on: “The culture around then, it was Monty Python, Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, The Producers’ Springtime For Hitler…And you know what? I have to be honest, but I do like the Nazi uniform. I shouldn’t say it, but I think it’s a very good-looking uniform…It’s almost like you feel like saying, ‘Aw, come on. Nazis — they’re brilliant.’ Political correctness becomes imprisoning. It’s very…what’s the word? It’s being very Nazi! It’s ironic, but this PC-ness is so f..cking fascist.”

so judging by his peers (perhaps not entirely fair, admittedly) would we be reasonable to expect any maturation in his views had he lived?

I often get the sense of a guy who really wanted to be able to hold onto and find satisfaction in traditional values but was never quite able to.xps

In the commentary version of Twenty Four Hour Party People, (the actual) Tony Wilson talks about his interpretation of punks using Nazi imagery. His version is much better articulated than Siouxsie's, but it's essentially the same thing: shock those who are susceptible to such reactions, simply because you can.

Not sure it was really about "shock the olds" in the case of Curtis though. There are clearly a few songs that show a fascination for Nazi violence and degredation (They Walked In Line, that one with the long quote from House of Dolls, Warsaw I think?, Atrocity Exhibition etc). And I think there's also a tie-in with the nihilistic romanticism of the Nazis (Decades, which embodies that, was originally called The Iron Cross)

Atrocity Exhibition is just cribbed from Ballard, surely?

and nothing to do with Nazis as far as I remember

My fiancee pointed out tonight that "blood of Christ on their skins" and "one-sided trials" could take on really dark connotations if one considers Curtis's Nazi fascination. Hope it wasn't his intention (and it probably wasn't).

(lines from "Wilderness")

xpost

Atrocity Exhibition takes its title but not much else from the Ballard book. The lyrics themselves seem to have a concentration camp vibe

first verse of atrocity exhibition seems to directly refer to the asylum tourism of the 17th and 18th centuries

Asylums with doors open wide
Where people had paid to see inside
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, "I still exist"

second verse seems to refer to gladiatorial combat

In arenas he kills for a prize
Wins a minute to add to his life
But the sickness is drowned by cries for more
Pray to God, make it quick, watch him fall

last two verses are a bit more opaque and there is definitely something of a concentration camp vibe to the third verse

You'll see the horrors of a faraway place
Meet the architects of law face to face
See mass murder on a scale you've never seen
And all the ones who try hard to succeed

And I picked on the whims of a thousand or more
Still pursuing the path that's been buried for years
All the dead wood from jungles and cities on fire
Can't replace or relate, can't release or repair
Take my hand and I'll show you what was and will be

from hooky's book

ah yes, the old "art is not political" defense

Re: "Atrocity Exhibition", it's always struck me as a close relative of the United States of America song, "The American Metaphysical Circus".

But, wow, yes, Sven Hassel books were everywhere in the 70s. Probably only the Richard Allen Skinhead/Suedehead were as widely read.

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Yep, agree with your analysis there. I didn't mean to say Atrocity Exhibition is explicitly Nazi-related but I do think this fascination for public torture and punishment is somehow related to his interest in Nazi imagery

I think I read also that Curtis saw the movie Cabaret a dozen times or something, that might also play into the whole 1930s aesthetic of Joy Division (severe haircuts, trench coats etc)

... Sven Hassel, who only died in 2012! (xp)

There was definitely a strange kind of Nazi/fascist chic thing going on in the 70s which predated punk, and seems to have been more about style, fashion and eroticism - which surely influenced Siouxsie Sioux's look - which you can trace to arthouse/semi-arthouse movies like "The Damned", "The Night Porter" and, not much remembered now but significant at the time, "Salon Kitty". All of which are Italian, interestingly enough.

... and then there's Bowie's Nazi salute @ Victoria Station, Bowie moving to Berlin, Bowie prancing about as a Prussian in "Just a Gigolo".

Wow unfamiliar w Hassel. What a weird story.

fwiw the swastikas on the rocket from the tombs gig poster are as far as I know related to the headliner Electric Eels

(xp) You're American, that's why.

(xp) Yeah, the Electric Eels def. used the swastika to annoy people, annoying people was their whole shtick.

I mean yeah they had a song that's basically just the phrase I See A N-word over and over

Yep Bowie is definitely in the mix there. He had that whole 1940s look going in his Berlin years which probably influenced Joy Division. Kraftwerk Man Machine look probably an influence too. Although Kraftwerk is more about what came just before the Nazis, nostalgia for the pre-Nazi world

Sparks too

Sparks, not really, that was more obviosuly jokey, plus didn't people suspect they were Jewish all along?

(xp) Absolutely, though I'm not sure how adept some random tossers from Macclesfield were at recognizing nostalgia for the pre-Nazi world when they saw it tbh.

Idk I wasnt there obviously, I thought Ron’s leering hitlerstache schtick and songs like Girl From Germany ruffled some feathers