so how much of a Nazi/Thatcherite/right-winger was this guy, really?
on, say, a scale of Joe Strummer > Nico > Skrewdriver
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:06 (five years ago) link
he was a nativist tory voter who compelled his wife not to vote labour as it would cancel out his vote and played with nazi aesthetics in an edgelord manner
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:17 (five years ago) link
Ian Curtis, founder of 4chan
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:18 (five years ago) link
yeah, definite alt-right vibes
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:22 (five years ago) link
was that before or after Devo founded the MRA
xp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:22 (five years ago) link
search results on the internet (as you might expect) are all over the place - you have leftists (and fellow bandmates like Morris) defending him as actually being anti-fascist, actual Nazis/racists being all "what's the big deal" or "YOU BET, ONE OF US!"
it's always rubbed me the wrong way and I've never been that huge a fan, but it does come off as in the lineage of Ron Asheton, Dee Dee Ramone, Lemmy, Nico, etc. Nazi-apologias disguised as "shock tactics" or "intellectual curiosity" or whatever. tbf Nazis *are* pretty fascinating, but to traffick in imagery simply to provoke seems at best to be sympathetic to fascism.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:27 (five years ago) link
the most sympathetic angle that I've heard that seems like it could hold water is that as baby boomers, children of the greatest generation, growing up in the stultifying cultural climate of post-war provincial britain, and then being into this supposed great cultural rupture and rebellion of punk, nazi imagery was them thumbing their noses at their parents' generation, bratty transgressive posturing and nothing more.
im not hugely sympathetic to that myself
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:32 (five years ago) link
yeah I've heard that too, usually combined with a "youthful indiscretion" defense, and proferred re: Siouxsie, Sid Vicious et al parading their Nazi armbands
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link
yes to shock tactics and trafficking in imagery and provoking as was pretty popular in 1978 or so but I think the actually lyrics among other things leans more towards morbid fascination than sympathy.
― dan selzer, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link
Pere Ubu too. It was quite popular.
hasn't this been discussed somewhere here before?
― dan selzer, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:35 (five years ago) link
not terribly sympathetic either, like "ooh my 'orrible parents when will they shut up about how their friends all died to defeat fascism *rmde*" just seems like entitled bullshit
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:35 (five years ago) link
Pere Ubu seems like a different thing
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:36 (five years ago) link
actually thinking Rocket From the Tombs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/13/6b/9b136b1e3714eb6b8f65745d893729bb.jpg
― dan selzer, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:37 (five years ago) link
oy
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:38 (five years ago) link
(as in oy gevalt)
"ooh my 'orrible parents when will they shut up about how their friends all died to defeat fascism *rmde*"
tbh I think this dates back to:
[Man on Train: I fought the war for your sort.Ringo Starr: I bet you're sorry you won.
at least...
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:50 (five years ago) link
isn't the punchline of that joke on... Ringo? because of what a disappointment he must be to the elder generation?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 21:57 (five years ago) link
nah it's cheeky young lads ribbing the olds IMO
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:01 (five years ago) link
my point is more that kids were *already* sick of hearing about it in 1964!
yeah well the olds were right and the young'uns were wrong
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:06 (five years ago) link
yeah I should clarify that the only good response I can imagine to "why did you wear a swastika in 1977" is "because I was a stupid kid"
― sleeve, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:07 (five years ago) link
guy was dead by 23. It's unfortunate that we can't ask him now.
― dan selzer, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:14 (five years ago) link
well, I haven't read any particularly convincing mea culpas from Hooky or Sumner fwiw
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:15 (five years ago) link
Does anyone know much about his religious beliefs? I've been a bit curious. There are a lot of often p intense Biblical references in JD lyrics.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:16 (five years ago) link
and here's the still alive Siouxsie Sioux:
“It was an anti-mums and dads thing. We hated older people always harping on about Hitler – we showed him – and that smug pride. It was a way of watching someone like that go completely red-faced.” She goes on: “The culture around then, it was Monty Python, Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, The Producers’ Springtime For Hitler…And you know what? I have to be honest, but I do like the Nazi uniform. I shouldn’t say it, but I think it’s a very good-looking uniform…It’s almost like you feel like saying, ‘Aw, come on. Nazis — they’re brilliant.’ Political correctness becomes imprisoning. It’s very…what’s the word? It’s being very Nazi! It’s ironic, but this PC-ness is so f..cking fascist.”
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:17 (five years ago) link
so judging by his peers (perhaps not entirely fair, admittedly) would we be reasonable to expect any maturation in his views had he lived?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:18 (five years ago) link
I often get the sense of a guy who really wanted to be able to hold onto and find satisfaction in traditional values but was never quite able to.xps
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 January 2019 22:19 (five years ago) link
In the commentary version of Twenty Four Hour Party People, (the actual) Tony Wilson talks about his interpretation of punks using Nazi imagery. His version is much better articulated than Siouxsie's, but it's essentially the same thing: shock those who are susceptible to such reactions, simply because you can.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:24 (five years ago) link
Not sure it was really about "shock the olds" in the case of Curtis though. There are clearly a few songs that show a fascination for Nazi violence and degredation (They Walked In Line, that one with the long quote from House of Dolls, Warsaw I think?, Atrocity Exhibition etc). And I think there's also a tie-in with the nihilistic romanticism of the Nazis (Decades, which embodies that, was originally called The Iron Cross)
― Zelda Zonk, Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:39 (five years ago) link
Atrocity Exhibition is just cribbed from Ballard, surely?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:44 (five years ago) link
and nothing to do with Nazis as far as I remember
My fiancee pointed out tonight that "blood of Christ on their skins" and "one-sided trials" could take on really dark connotations if one considers Curtis's Nazi fascination. Hope it wasn't his intention (and it probably wasn't).
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:45 (five years ago) link
(lines from "Wilderness")
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:46 (five years ago) link
xpost
Atrocity Exhibition takes its title but not much else from the Ballard book. The lyrics themselves seem to have a concentration camp vibe
― Zelda Zonk, Thursday, 3 January 2019 23:51 (five years ago) link
first verse of atrocity exhibition seems to directly refer to the asylum tourism of the 17th and 18th centuries
Asylums with doors open wideWhere people had paid to see insideFor entertainment they watch his body twistBehind his eyes he says, "I still exist"
second verse seems to refer to gladiatorial combat
In arenas he kills for a prizeWins a minute to add to his lifeBut the sickness is drowned by cries for morePray to God, make it quick, watch him fall
last two verses are a bit more opaque and there is definitely something of a concentration camp vibe to the third verse
You'll see the horrors of a faraway placeMeet the architects of law face to faceSee mass murder on a scale you've never seenAnd all the ones who try hard to succeed
And I picked on the whims of a thousand or moreStill pursuing the path that's been buried for yearsAll the dead wood from jungles and cities on fireCan't replace or relate, can't release or repairTake my hand and I'll show you what was and will be
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:07 (five years ago) link
from hooky's book
― visiting, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:11 (five years ago) link
ah yes, the old "art is not political" defense
― Οὖτις, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:12 (five years ago) link
Re: "Atrocity Exhibition", it's always struck me as a close relative of the United States of America song, "The American Metaphysical Circus".
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:15 (five years ago) link
But, wow, yes, Sven Hassel books were everywhere in the 70s. Probably only the Richard Allen Skinhead/Suedehead were as widely read.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:17 (five years ago) link
xpostYep, agree with your analysis there. I didn't mean to say Atrocity Exhibition is explicitly Nazi-related but I do think this fascination for public torture and punishment is somehow related to his interest in Nazi imagery
I think I read also that Curtis saw the movie Cabaret a dozen times or something, that might also play into the whole 1930s aesthetic of Joy Division (severe haircuts, trench coats etc)
― Zelda Zonk, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:18 (five years ago) link
... Sven Hassel, who only died in 2012! (xp)
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:20 (five years ago) link
There was definitely a strange kind of Nazi/fascist chic thing going on in the 70s which predated punk, and seems to have been more about style, fashion and eroticism - which surely influenced Siouxsie Sioux's look - which you can trace to arthouse/semi-arthouse movies like "The Damned", "The Night Porter" and, not much remembered now but significant at the time, "Salon Kitty". All of which are Italian, interestingly enough.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:28 (five years ago) link
... and then there's Bowie's Nazi salute @ Victoria Station, Bowie moving to Berlin, Bowie prancing about as a Prussian in "Just a Gigolo".
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:32 (five years ago) link
Wow unfamiliar w Hassel. What a weird story.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:35 (five years ago) link
fwiw the swastikas on the rocket from the tombs gig poster are as far as I know related to the headliner Electric Eels
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:37 (five years ago) link
(xp) You're American, that's why.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:38 (five years ago) link
(xp) Yeah, the Electric Eels def. used the swastika to annoy people, annoying people was their whole shtick.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Friday, 4 January 2019 00:40 (five years ago) link
I mean yeah they had a song that's basically just the phrase I See A N-word over and over
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:42 (five years ago) link
Yep Bowie is definitely in the mix there. He had that whole 1940s look going in his Berlin years which probably influenced Joy Division. Kraftwerk Man Machine look probably an influence too. Although Kraftwerk is more about what came just before the Nazis, nostalgia for the pre-Nazi world
― Zelda Zonk, Friday, 4 January 2019 00:43 (five years ago) link