Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

Sure, 'cause the piano chords are anticipating the downbeat by a 16th note

― change display name (Jordan), Friday, December 28, 2018 1:53 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's what's going on DURING the verse, but I can't hear it in the transition between the intro and the verse, I think maybe the downbeat just shifts

Idk I'm pretty sure it's the same from the beginning, but it's hard to feel since the bassline is so squirrelly too. But I can tap it out and it seems to line up once the percussion comes in.

"Tomorrow is Already Here" by Stereolab does this to me, but it's also in 5/4 which accounts for part of the disorientation.

That one's easy once the maraca comes in pretty much immediately.

It might have been mentioned already but does Roxy Music’s « the bogey man » work here ?
The drums seem pretty tricky.

Bogus Man !

Why Music Experts Are Fighting About Ludacris

The chiming 12-string bridge section of "Stairway To Heaven" is a good example of this, there's another thread that goes into it. This video (warning: dude is annoying af) goes into it if you can stomach watching all the way through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhlLtd19szw

The Ludacris thing is a very stupid argument because all you need to do to get the answer is listen to the entire song instead of just the chorus

everything theo parrish has ever made

The Ludacris thing, I'm in the third group camp. Sounds like a latin jazz rhythm (muntuno?)

Genesis - "Keep It Dark."

The guitar-only intro sounds like a loping waltz. Then the drums and keys come in, and you realize you've been listening to the off-beats of a 6/4 groove.

The Ludacris thing...yes, it's a weird beat that feels very ungrounded, and the harmonic movement of the horns make you want to feel a downbeat on the & of 1, instead of on 1.

But OF COURSE the drums are in 'half time', and of course the snare is playing backbeats.

yeah i found it easy to hear 2 or 3 possible downbeats at first, but once i locked in on that same understanding -- snare playing backbeats -- it suddenly became impossible for me to hear it any other way.

So crazy to me that I would have definitely lined up the horn phrase with the second note landing on the downbeat, like a square, but Timbaland made a CHOICE.

Had to look it up, Tim used a sample (err... interpolation) of the opening horns & rhythm (tumbai/muntuno) of this Senegal Africando song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOMHAi4Bto

Good call on Keep it Dark. Glorious Om Riff by Steve Village is syncopated in a similar vein, as is Disko by Komeda.

Woo-Hah by Busta Rhymes? Definitely with Space by Galt McDermott, which provides the sample, it's hard to follow the downbeat all the way through the song.

Heartbeat by Chris & Cosey, just because the 808 clap isn't "supposed to be" on the downbeat.

I’ve never able to follow the meter of this song (maybe that’s just my own failing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXU4P6j3TNY

I didn't follow the Ludacris debate but, listening now, idk why you wouldn't just hear the snare as the backbeat.

the ariana song is a mid-tempo 4/4 with the fingersnaps on 3.

what makes "get well soon" hard to follow is it's heavily syncopated and often there isn't anything on the 1

Ride of the Valkyries. I just discovered the downbeat is not where I always thought it was, and I'm guessing most other people mis-hear it as well. I was watching a Youtube video, and the conductor looked out of time until I realized....whoa. My mind is kind of blown.

I'm very curious about this, because I can't imagine it anywhere else?

Trying to unhear it the way I do and am pondering the string stabs during the main riff?

Here are two ways to hear Ride of the Valkyries, in each the downbeat is capitalized.

1 2 3 1 2 3
1) DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa etc.

1 2 3 1 2
2) dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa etc.

The first one is how Wagner wrote it. The second is the way I've always heard it.

I'm interested in this phenomenon, especially when you're approaching a dance rig and the first round you hear are the high hats, but because you perceive them out of time they take on an almost ska-like quality 'mm-TSSS-UH mm-TSSS-UH' until you get closer and hear the kick drum and the whole beat switches into place. Any dance producers played on this before?

"Lost In Music" always gives me a little double take, which is part of the pleasure imo - it's like 'the pocket' is so deep in this song, the pocket has a pocket of its own

dl I have "played" on this many times by accidentally lining the records up on the off-beat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroXhI2uZs

Ahhh, that makes sense re: Valkyries. I've always heard the 1st way but the 2nd way makes sense.

Dog latin - same.

I don't really get the Sister Sledge thing because the beat is so strong. But I have a hard time hearing the intro to Rufus & Chaka 'Tell Me Something Good' correctly, with the wah wah keys on the downbeat and the bass on the upbeat.

catches me off guard every time it finally "snaps into place" on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZvikbX7RA

I must admit, when I listen to Valkyries, I only hear it Wagner's way-- the chords are also changing on the downbeat

That said, had you asked me to sit down at the piano and play it, prior to "just now", when I rewatched/relistened, I would've absolutely weighted it (and had the chords change) as you've described in your 2nd example, B'wana Beast. Interesting

Also wild to hear how John Williams's whole "heroic" mode contains all these orchestral devices

"No Reply At All" doesn't belong on this thread but having seen "Keep It Dark" mentioned here I relistened to both it the former and, well, the album Abacab slaps

*both it and the former

I think Phil Collins must've been fond of this downbeat trick, because the verses in "Dance on a Volcano" do a similar thing.

I have two of these:

Amazing Journey by The Who - The opening always fools me that the downbeat is on the first chord of each pair, when in fact it is the second chord (one and a half beats later). Daltrey also starts singing on the downbeat, but it doesn't become clear to me until the drums come in. Maybe the backwards feedback over the intro is also misleading.

Mechanical World by Spirit - I only figured out tonight that the downbeat in the verses is on the third hi-hat hit, not the first, which was misleading me completely. The whole song is in straight 4/4 if you count it properly!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Theo's "Bubbles", too

When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk

re: "Lost in Music" - great example!
also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4

maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.

Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?

re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ

i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?

oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM

almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording

Yes! Considered that