Bashir's Michael Jackson circus......

So do I, darlin'. It's not so much that I'm commending Bashir for his approach (although he exuded a lot more restraint and compassion than a lot of his American counterparts), it's just that Michael Jackson is a pretty indefensible character at this stage.

cant say i like bashir much, but ive neve had time for him

this is the same cat who ignored every single racial issue in his life than brought out sharpton when his records stopped selling.

this is ths same cat whgo took advantage of the greatest duo in pop history ( Lennon and Mccartney)by buying the rights to the beatle’s music and desecrating it by pimping the songs to major corporations.

and you want me to believe that this motherfucker is SINCERE!!?!?!

If this is your idea of refreshingly flawed, then yes, by all means, Michael Jackson is refreshingly flawed.

Maria is right: nobody over here rates Bashir highly for content or style. He is a member of the OBM (order of the Brown Nose, see Private Eye). FFS he works for ITV which compared to other British outlets is tailored for the remedial learning krew. You couldn't really dumb it down further.

But when MJ attacked Bashir in the press statement I just thought 'aw, widdums is being manipulated by the media, poor widdums'. Usually this kind of spilt milk weeping is done loudest by the biggest and most practiced of media spinfreaks and gives me zero reason to be sympathetic.

http://www.angelfire.com/music4/invinciblemj/FACTFROMFICTION/framed.htm

When did he get the rights to Beatles' music. how much money did he pay?

I don't agree with this. Nothing is tantamount to an admission of guilt, other than undeniable proof or, em, an admission of guilt! If I was wrongly accused of something, and I had the money to save me going through an emotionally-draining court case, I'd be pretty tempted to bail myself out.

As for Jacko, he struck me as being more stupid than evil. I think it was his own admissions about having 12 year olds in his bed, rather than any sly editing by Bashir, that made the documentary so unflattering. But I think this was done out of naivety. He needs someone to sit him down and tell him "Even if your intentions are good, there are some things you SHOULD NOT DO!" He needs people to discourage his creepy desire to remain a child forever, rather than indulge it. He needs help, basically, and instead of crying about how Bashir stabbed him in the back, he should get help for himself.

"MJ dripped with sincerity"

Was this the part where he said he didn't have much cosmetic surgery, or the part where he said that he had a relationship with the wife of his 3rd child, then retracted it later? And as for his desire to adopt two children from every continent, I don't think I've ever laughed so hard.

What would would be the probability that eventually greed would get the better of one of the parents and that they would sue? My guess is, certainly more than 50% and probably close to 100%.

Which doesn't prove Jackson's innocent but it should stop people jumping to conclusions.

i think the evidence points to: here is a phenomenally gifted but at the same time tremendously repressed, angry, unhappy, fucked-up, self-hating individual who's tried to compensate for all this not by finding a way to understand any of it*, but instead by constructing a fantasy paradise haven for himself and "other children like him", which in its wealth-based divorce from ordinary adult reality was only ever going to last until the money ran out, when the repressed wd return with screeching vengeance

*though unconscious stabs towards self-revelation can be found i. in many of his songs, some of which are incredibly dark and violent ("i am the damned, i am the dead, i am the agony inside a dying head"), and ii. his surgery, which is like some self-destructive punk rocker who tattoos "fuck the world" on his forehead (he wasn't consciously prettifying himself, he was unconsciously uglifying himself)

And you don't think that having had to pay an estimated out-of-court settlement of $15M might have given him at least a pointer?

As Killian pointed out above:

"This is the same cat who went up to a mentally I'll sly stone and virtually hijacked his copyrights
this is the same cat who ignored every single racial issue in his life than brought out sharpton when his records stopped selling.

this is ths same cat whgo took advantage of the greatest duo in pop history ( Lennon and Mccartney)by buying the rights to the beatle’s music and desecrating it by pimping the songs to major corporations."

.... and you want me to believe that this individual is NAIF!!?!?!

he's hardly a master of either accumulative business shrewdness or media manipulation (doing the bashir thing at all = he is naive!!) (by contrast howard hughes — who i don't think was naive at all — remained good with money and media until close to the end: in particular NEVER exposing himself....)

*rolls eyes*

the beatle’s music ... desecrating it

*rolls eyes back even further*

I know someone who has worked with Jackson, and who says that the root of all of his mental problems, aside from the child/adult stuff, is that he feels that he cannot trust anyone - absolutely anyone at all - since he thinks that everyone is trying to get something from him. A problem more than a few very famous people have faced before, but probably magnified in this case, since he has been at this outrageously uncomfortable level of fame for most of his life. Maybe this is why he thinks that children are more trustworthy than adults, for when he was a child, his reality was continually being destroyed by the adults around him - whose trust he was supposed to have had, like his father's, of course. And maybe this is why he only surrounds himself with yes-men now: by keeping himself insulated by people who will indulge his ever whim he can pretend that he has won their trust.

I think the regression aspect of "going back into childhook" is obvious enough - Peter Pan never wanted to grow up and leave Neverland, and neither does Michael Jackson. It's a neurotic condition, born out of a desperation to live what was perceived to have been lost or denied (a childhood), in the first place. The irony: his self-constructed childhoos has by now lasted longer than a regular childhood usually does. And we already know what Freud et al (of course they were correct only in the most general sense), have already said about how neuroses are sexualized, or connected to "arrested development," sexually speaking. He is quite turned on by the idea of childhood, literally; does this mean he could have been unconsciously coming onto the children ? Probably ? But was there ever any real malice in his intentions, to harm the child? Probably not. He was sadly probably unaware of how uncomfortable the child(ren) must have been...it's unconscious...

The only solution, aside from years and years of strenous therapy (in this case, hypnosis would be the only effective measure, imo), would be just to leave him alone in his fantasy world, but somehow remove the potential threat of his neurtoic behavior. Let him live in his own world, but remove the possibility of his being able to harm anyone there. In other words, remove him from the children - take all of them away from the ranch, the mansion, forever. I don't know if I feel the same way about his children, but I think they should be living with their respective mothers, not him, and that his visits should be supervised - it sounds horrile to deny a private relationship, but at least not until they are old enough to grow out of their vulnerable childhoods, they shouldn't be alone with him.

The problem, however, of removing the children from his fantasy world, would be to shatter it smewhat - he would find himself being a lonely, isolated child again, not finding anyone to share his "childhood" with, wouldn't he? But perhaps this cracking would be an evolutionary breakthrough for him, it might, it just might force him to realize that childhood is just not a place where he wants to be anymore, especially when he has to be there all by himself, bereft of other children to "share" it with. Perhaps, then, slowly (along with the intense counseling, of course), he could start to re-enter the world of adulthood (or enter it fully for the first time), after the craving for adult relationships would begin, as a result of forced loneliness. And please get rid of the yes-men. One problem: how do you ignite the genesis of an adult, normal sexuality in an individual who has been fetishing children for so long? How will the desire for adult relationships be instilled within him, when he does not have any real sexual feelings for adults... these are hard questions to answer, since I do not know even if awareness of his condition could actually foster an authentic desire to have adult sexual contact, when that desire hasn't been there for years (but was it dormant?). It's almost as if in the therapy, he's have to undergo puberty & adolescence (for the first time?), and only THEN be able to reach adulthood, the way the rest of us did - that'd be the only way he could mature out of his childlike state. It's really bizarre to think of, since the biological timing is obviously quite off, but it'd have to be mind over matter, as they say. Just imagine him calling Ms. Taylor and asking: "what's happening to my bawdy, Liz, it's strange but I'm getting these URGES when I see National Velvet now..."

The Bahsir betrayal is only going to deepen his troubles, for starters.

Why am I still writing this??????? I 've put far too much thought into Michael jackson, shoot me!!!

let's say it this way: the sandwiches MJ originally brought to the picnic were not widely or automatically available

Fair point Mark, 'though I still think there are levels of functionality to be considered here, of which "business shrewdness" and "media manipulation" must rank pretty highly, whereas recognising that most people aren't going to be happy with the idea of a single adult male sharing his bed with a succession of young children probably ranks slightly above recognising that you shouldn't play on the motorway or stick your fingers in electrical sockets, as a basic survival skill if nothing else!

I also don't think he's capabale of enough calculation to actually change his appearance/body for the sake of keeping others at bay - I think he feels cut off from them, helplessly, due to identity he has to live with day fter day. Which is why the company of children, children he can trust, is what he seeks out...innocent fun ike climibing trees and starting food fights (careful, don't hit the shnozz! it'll fall in the mashed potatos!) is what fulfills him...and the sexual feelings he experiences towards the children, if he does at all, are unconscious.

You know, thats how many fetishes and hang-ups start: wanting something so bad. Wanting to BE it. Thinking you NEED t, then realizing even your BODY craves it. Being in love with an inanimate object, or concept, you have such a strongly emotional issue with (for him, it's childhood) --> in the psyche things can get twisted, and you start desiring the object/concept in a sexual manner, without even realizing it, since its attainment is supposed to emotionally satisfy you on such a deep level in the first place. Emotions/sexuality, you know the foggy connections. It's a wonder how the mind functions, or dysfunctions.

I could almost attest in terms of first-person experience on how some fetishes work this way, but since I'm one of the least-well-known regular posters on here, I'm not going to break the imagined spell just yet =)

It seemed clear that the accusations of paedophilia really really bother him. He looked so angry and distraught when he was being asked about that. I would imagine he did the program to try and make people see him in a different light.

I just hated the way they moralized about him. Like everyone in America doesn't have a Peter Pan complex. Like every other celebrity hasn't had too much plastic surgery. Bashir was asking him about having surrogate children as if it was a bizarre crime. Kept going on about how he likes to sit in a tree and think as if this was outrageous.

I don't know. I'm speaking as someone born in the mid '70s, and obviously I didn't witness Jackson 5-mania firsthand -- still, I don't get the impression that race was ever a huge stumbling block in MJ's career path. It could just be a personal hangup he has, not any specific career move.

Again I agree to an extent Mark, although I'm not at all sure whether that's because he's testing the boundaries of his reality by getting gradually closer and closer to the traffic ; or because he's craving the oblivion of having one of those great big lorries finally splatter him all over the motorway; or because he's started believing that he controls the traffic and the lorries can't hurt him.

Some more concrete explanations for his child-fetish:

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)

No. I know the traditional response to something like this is supposed to be [something like!] "Martha Graham!?" but I wouldn't know who it is, i just don't think he's the greatest the world has ever seen, despite how good he is. Or was. Take away the moonwalk, and how unique are his moves?

Not that uniqueness is anything significant i pop-dancing, but even in regards to traditional forms of hoofing around, he couldn't win a dance-off with Astaire. And doesn't his nose have an increased chance of falling off these days, when he performs ?

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)"

Of course if he believes any of those things (bearing in mind that the "children" we saw on the programme / we're talking about appear to be aged between about 8 and 14) then he really *IS* naif!

How many financially savvy, sexually aggressive, Jacko-bashing eight-year-olds do you know?

That's what I figure Mark - which must means that at certain times of the day at least (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say *on some level*) he must be fully conscious that a great deal of his behaviour is at very least inappropriate.

I think this is true, and what I was trying to say anyway. Him believing this does not make him naive, on the contrary it's closer to pragmatism, really.

The interview disclosed in very candid, plain terms that he's a 44 year old man that sleeps in the same bed with children. What more do you need to know?

This is patently untrue. All the best Jackson 5 stuff ("ABC", "I Want You Back," "I'll Be There", et al) were written by Gordy and Motown's staff of writers. And it's pretty well-established the backing band on the recordings were session guys.

"I'm not sure why Gordy or Q should get the credit. "

Because they co-wrote and/or produced every worthwhile note he's ever made...?

Obviously Gordy and Jones played an important role in his career. Nobody does it alone. But to suggest that they were the masterminds and he was the puppet seems a bit unfair to me.

I don't think Jacko's was a "puppet" exactly - not in his solo career anyway (re: the Jackson 5 tho I would say "puppet" is an apt term) - but he's hardly a creative powerhouse. That's not exactly a wealth of great material there, 4 songs...

I think by any standard that's a pretty weird thing to do - certainly unhealthy for children psychologically - there are very few socio-cultural (abject poverty, for example) circumstances where that's acceptable.

Ben: they aren't the sole measure, but when it comes to music, for me that's a massive part of it. Certainly it's a criteria for calling anyone a "genius" (a term I also cringe at using - hell, I don't even believe there's such a thing as "talent"...)

Very sound reasoning, Shakey, but I've since lost interest in the debate, nor relish the notion of being further branded as a hate-monger.

Hmmmm....well, I didn't *KNOW* Charles Manson either, but I think it's pretty safe to assume he's a crazed wing nut....but I guess I'm just a slave to the media that way.

i do actually seriously think that the judgment whether someone is fit to look after children shd be left to something more substantial than the mass TV audience of a piece of rubbishy tabloid television, especially when the presence of camera/interviewer etc, and the stress of the specific interview situation, may be the actual cause of (apparently relevant) oddity of behaviour

I don't give a fukcing shit about either michael jax0n or m4rtin bashir, for the rekkid.

I remember a thread about whether there is such a thing as talent, but I can't find it...

"Come on, you think Quincy Jones and Berry Gordy could have made just anyone into Michael Jackson? "

Not just anybody, but somebody else? Sure. Why not? Star-making machinery is uber-powerful.

alex, manson was tried and convicted in a court of law not by a television audience based on one TV programme

Oh that's right.....we only got wind of Jackson's weirdness this week. Prior to his chat with Bashir, everything was perfectly rosey and wonderful at Neverland, with no black clouds on the horizon at all.

Also, Manson didn't have the financial means to hire legal representation of the same might that Jackson entertains.

So everyone who's famous in the industry is there because they really are the most talented people around? Not anyone could "be" Michael Jackson, you're right. You need someone especially twisted to "be" Michael Jackson. In that respect, you're right. But truly, is Britney Spears so incredibly talented that what she does no one else who's been trained since birth to do what she does couldn't do it? Or for that matter, be better at whatever it is that Britney Spears does?

Of course media is "uber-powerful". As it has proven time and time again, it can shove crap on society that it doesn't want, until through repetition, it accepts it (eg, Limp Bizkit). That doesn't mean Michael Jackson is devoid of talent or ability, but to believe that he's the only person who could have sung those songs and danced like that is absurd. Perhaps they wouldn't have sold 25 million units and made 15 minute music videos, but they could and would have been successful.

-
Alan

-
Alan

I can point you to numerous psychological studies that conclude that children who consistently sleep w/adults (usually their parents, but I'm sure it applies to non-family members even moreso) past the age of 4 or so demonstrate various developmental/emotional problems. Let me know if you want me to look some up.

and i have a friend who is 44 and great with kids who i totally trust and my kid likes him, and mom and pop have to go off somewhere but not with kid bcz of school, and my pal babysits - except my kid has a nightmare and climbs into bed with my pal

Q: should i worry about this?
A: it depends...

why i objected to the original question = it's just way too vague to make any kind of sensible judgement, despite alex's increasingly dotty frothing

Don't be so sure.
I know someone who served 12 years in prison for being at the scene of a crime and attempting to help the person.
Obviously, he is black.

When I start dottily frothing, you'll fuckin' KNOW IT, mate!

Frankly, no.

My children are not allowed out of the Skinner box.

http://sfgate.com/gallery/pod/

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