Do you need to know the rules to break the rules? -- free jazz, improv, noise, etc

i personally prefer to have some sort of ringer when it comes to noise music. i want something that ties everything together in my head, something to grasp onto. be it a melody or a strong rhythm. i even want it the other way around. i want a ringer in normal music (this time being noise or wackiness to break up the niceness).

btw, how does someone know all this crazy obscure music so long ago. people are still catching up.

IIRC he worked in a German underground record shop for a while, or something like that.

Or maybe not.

Coltrane's "free" records, esp. the final ones (like that freaking amazing "final concert" that came out a year or two ago) have a lot of very interesting stuff making up the screaming chaos.

AGITATION FREE PEKKA AIRAKSINEN AIRWAY ALBRECT D ALCRATAZ ALGARNAS TRADGARD ALL 7-70 ALTERNATIVE TV ALVARO AME SON AMM MUSIC AMON DUUL AMON DUUL II ANAL MAGIC + REVEREND DWIGHT FRIZZEL ANIMA ANNEXUS QUAM AQSAK MABOUL ARBETE OCH FRITID ARCANE V ARCHAIA ARCHIMEDES BADKAR AREA GILBERT ARTMAN ART BEARS ART ZOYD III ARZACHEL ROBERT ASHLEY ASH RA TEMPLE ASSOCIATION PC IL BALLETTO DI BRONZO BANTEN FRANCO BATTIATO HAN BENNICK STEVE BERESFORD JACQUES BERROCAL PHILIPPE BESOMBES BIGLIETTO PER L'INFERNO BIRGE GORGE SHIROC BLUE SUN RAYMOND BONI DON BRADSHAW LEATHER BRAINSTORM BRAINTICKET BRAST BURN BRAVE NEW WORLD ANTON BRUHIN BRUHWARM THEATRE FRANZ DE BYL CABERET VOLTAIRE JOHN CAGE CAN CAPSICUM RED CAPTAIN BEEFHEART CHAMBERPOT CHECKPOINT CHARLIE CHENE NOIR CHILLUM HENRI CHOPIN CHROME COHELMEC ENSEMBLE JEAN COHEN-SOLAL COLLEGIUM MUSICUM ROBERTO COLOMBO COME COMPANYIA ELECTRICA DHARMA COMUS CORNUCOPIA CRASS CREATIVE ROCK CRO MAGNON DAVID CUNNINGHAM CUPOL DADAZUZU WOLFGANG DAUNER DEBRIS DECAYES DEDALUS DEEP FREEZE MICE DEUTSCH-AMERIKANISCHEN FREUNDSCHAFT DHARMA QUINTET DIES IRAE DOME DOO DOOETTES PHILIPPE DORAY ROGER DOYLE JEAN DUBUFFET DZYAN EILIFF EMTIDI EROC ETRON FOU LELOUBLAN EXMAGMA FAMILY FODDER PATRIZIO FARISELLI FAUST LUC FERRARI FILLE QUI MOUSSE FLOH DE CLOGNE FLYING LIZARDS FOOD BRAIN WALTER FRANCO FREE AGENTS FRIENDSOUND FRED FRITH GASH RON GESSIN GILA JEF GILSON GLAXO BABIES GOD IN DISGUISE(FORKLAND GUD) GOMORRHA GONG GOOD MISSIONARIES GRAND MAGIC CIRCUS JOHN GREAVES & PETER BLEGVAD FERNANDO GRILLO RAGNAR GRIPPE GROBSCHNITT GROUP 1850 JEAN GUERIN FRIEDRICH GULDA GURU GURU HAIRY CHAPTER HAMPTON GREASE BAND HELDON PIERRE HENRY HENTY COW HERATIUS HERO JUAN HIDALGO HUGH HOPPER HORDE CATALTYQUE POUR LA FIN HORRIFIC CHILD IBLISS L'INFONIE INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER ISKRA ISLAND MARTIN DAVORIN JAGODIC JAN DUKES DE GREY KING CRIMSON BASIL KIRCHIN ASAMU KITAJIMA KLUSTER FRANK KOLGES KOLLEKTIV ROTE RUBE KOMINTERN KRAFTWERK KROKIDIL STEVE LACY LARD FREE LE FORTE FOUR LEMON KITTENS LILY LIMBUS 3 LIMBUS 4 BERNARD LUBAT ALVIN LUCIER MAGICAL POWER MAKO MAGMA COLETTE MAGNY MAHJUN MAHOGANY BRAIN MALFATTI-WITTWER MAMA DADA 1919 MICHAEL MANTLER ALBERT MARCOEUR MARS MASCHINE NR.9 MATE & VALLANCIEN COSTIN MIEREANU MIN BUL MNEMONISTS MODRY EFEKT MOOLAH ANTHONY MOORE MOTHERS OF INVENTION MOVING GELATINE PLATES FRITZ MULLER THIERRY MULLER(ILITCH) MUSICA ELECTRONICA VIVA MUSIC IMPROVISATION COMPANY MYTHOS NAPOLI CENTRALE NEGATIVELAND NEU! NEW PHONIC ART NICO NIGHT SUN NIHILIST SPASM BAND NINE DAYS WONDER NOSFERATU NU CREATIVE METHODS OKTOBER YOKO ONO OPERATION RHINO OPUS AVANTRA ORCHID SPANGIAFORA OUT OF FOCUS OVARY LODGE TONY OXLEY PARKER & LYTTON PATAPHONIE PAUVROS & BIZIEN PERE UBU PIERROT LUNAIRE DER PLAN PLASTIC ONO BAND PLASTIC PEOPLE OF THE UNIVERSE POISON GIRLS POLE POP GROUP MICHEL PORTAL BOMIS PRENDIN PUBLIC IMAGE LTD RED CRAYOLA RED NOISE REFORM ART UNIT STEVE REICH ACHIM REICHEL THE RESIDENTS CATHERINE RIBEIRO & ALPES BOYD RICE TERRY RILEY CLAUDIO ROCCHI ROCKY'S FILJ RON PATES DEBONAIRES ROTH, RUHM & WIENER RAY RUSSEL TERJE RYPDAL MARTIN SAINT PIERRE SAMLA MAMMAS MANNA GUNTER SCHICKERT SECOND HAND SECRET OYSTER SEESSELBERG SEMOOL SONNY SHARROCK SILBERBART SILOAH SMEGMA SALLY SMMIT (& HER MUSICIANS) SNATCH SOFT MACHINE SPERM SPHINX TUSH KARLHEINZ STOCKHAUSEN STOOGES DEMETRIO STRATOS SUPERSISTER TAJ MAHAL TRAVELLERS TAMIA TANGERINE DREAM GHEDALIA TAZARTES TECHNICAL SPACE COMPOSERS CREW MAMA BEA TEKEILSKI THIRD EAR BAND THIRSTY MOON THIS HEAT JACQUES THOLLOT THRICE MICE THROBBING GRISTLE PAOLO TOFANI TOKYO KID BROTHERS TOLERANCE TOMORROW'S GIFT TON STEINE SCHERBEN TRANS MUSEQ ULI TREPTE TWENTY SIXTY SIX & THEN UNIVERS ZERO CHRISTIAN VANDER VELVET UNDERGROUND VERTO PATRICK VIAN L.VOAG MICHEL WAISVISZ IGOR WAKHEVITCH JAMES WHITE & THE CONTORTIONS WHITEHOUSE LAWRENCE WIENER WIRED TREVOR WISHART WOORDEN ROBERT WYATT IANNIS XENAKIS XHOL CARAVAN XHOL YA HO WA 13 LA MONTE YOUNG FRANK ZAPPA ZNR ZWEISTEIN

Yeah I heard the solo Hagerty shows weren't grrrreat, but then again I dunno a lot of it comes down to intention and whatnot. How do you know those two drummers don't "know the rules" but chose to flaunt them anyways? Is there something wrong with defying the rules of a given genre, in that case rock or something ("noise soul")?

I'll get around to writing you back today, hopefully!

I am the fly in your ointment, I can spread more disease, blah blah blah, I BETTER BUY MYSELF A NEW REFERENCE, MISTER!

Yeah, I dunno about the Hagerty. I'd rather see a unglorious mess than a polished turd, myself.

What do you think of Meg White?

2. how is Hagerty's solo album (does he have more than one)?. i heard a clip of it once and was kinda into it. weird soul w/super fat low end bass. sounded kinda cool and i keep seeing it around, but keep passing it up.

Here's where I disagree. Free jazz definitely has rules, and if anything, it's a common misconception that it doesn't (a misconception that has harmed the career of nearly every freejazzer that never "went straight" later). Most all of the first and second wave dudes and dudettes (very rare, but there are some) that played this music knew the jazz rules because they had already played for years.

Improv, having come out of free jazz practices, is a bit more free-for-all but was still played by dudes and dudettes with backgrounds in other, more rule-based music. I have a hard time believing that even the freest, most-outest improvisor doesn't bring something to the table in terms of experience, conception, rule-understanding, technique, etc. (i.e. Evan Parker may sound like "noise" to the free jazz trad philistines (yes there are some) on freejazz.org, but he can play anything with rules and melody if he wants so fuck them).

I'm not sure if there's any rules for noise, but then again I'm not sure if noise is a genre.

And where does Reynols fit in all this?

I think it's really all about concept guiding execution. Which is why some garage bands (like, say, the Oblivians) work for me, whereas some don't (like, say, The White Stripes).

Reynols = No Existen

no, it wasn't a comparison - > (greater than).

where does jean dubuffet's music fit in? he literally didn't know how to play ANY instruments...

that more or less expresses my attitude towards this thread.

Personally I'm a fan of learning your instrument with discipline and then 'forgetting' what you know...everything you have done before on it informs what you play whether you want it to or not (i.e. Coltrane's 'free' stuff still sounds very thoughtful and intentional to me). Also, if musicians who have spent time learning their instrument simply have better control over their tone and know how to get a good sound(s) out of it, and therefore will be more pleasant to listen to no matter what they're playing (and how noisy it is).

yes, i think practitioners of this relatively recent trend (art-rock from the premise of existing rationales for some free jazz and 20th century classical practises, or from the premise of 'new' or 'experimental') have to know the 'how' and 'why' of music to be able to aim properly, so they are able to play their instruments maybe oddly, maybe semi-accidentally, but still deliberately -- to arrive at the aims of the musical/noise undertaking by rules or guidelines for the manipulation of sound -- i think it has to sound more intelligible than 'found accidental sound', yeah imho

this stuff has been argued extensively elsewhere -- to really enjoy these musics i think the listener has to be able to ignore the rhetoric whilst actually processing the music -- the music has to stand up for itself as sound, however free-ish or random sounding -- right down to delivering on the title conferred on the music -- from this, i say "free noise" is an easy umbrella term consistent with there being no existing language with which to properly criticise this stuff, ie however you might think the music developing in this way is often in its infancy, the terms of discussion for it are a long way from consensus

I dunno, but his music is great. Wish I could find those Finnadar LPs...

PS. Vinyl sucks.

Anyway, I had never heard a jazz record like this before. I'm also reminded of very early Weather Report, kind of a spacey, tricky pop at heart here. I don't think it's on CD, I found it on slsk.

http://www.hundredyearsgallery.com/cram-festival/

this looks ok..

is there a more regularly used improv/free thread? anyway, have really been getting into this album - trim — dominic lash/rachel mission/steve noble/phil durrant.

i’m not a knowledgeable free jazz person *at all* but there’s an almost archaic lyricism here in the improv boundary zones, with a version of space age synths and information distortion. it keeps insistently reminding me, in ways i can’t articulate, of hank jones’ lazy afternoon. this seems absurd on its face but i’m going to go along with it.

good new label too.

just post in in the rolling jazz thread imo

Or in whiney's thread rolling frankly annoying quirked up random ass sounds glooped onto a DAW 2023

^ i have no idea what that thread is and refuse to post in it

your loss