Pazz and Jop.

personally whenever i see ppl write 25-to-50+-deep lists of their favorite albums of the year my first thought is always "idek if i've even listened to that many albums this year". and somehow some of the ppl who can draw up such lists struggle to come up with a similar list of songs? like, do the albums you supposedly love not have songs on them?

It's rare that my singles and album lists overlap. I'm cheating if they do.

never really understood why people like to pretend that none of their favorite albums contain favorite tracks (esp as the concept of the 'single' continues to erode)

For me, as pertains to best of year lists, it's so that I can share the love more effectively. If there's enough great stuff on an album to justify it as one of the best things I heard this year, you can assume several great singles are on there. Inverse isn't always the case.

ever really understood why people like to pretend that none of their favorite albums contain favorite tracks (esp as the concept of the 'single' continues to erode)

― dyl, Sunday, December 23, 2018

Because I love enough singles that I don't need to fill precious spots with tracks from albums that I'll place.

Good thing you don't work in the music industry or any of its supporting branches!
(<3 u whiney)

or should I say, more accurately, last year as a “journalist”

I generally can pull a thousand tracks I heard and kinda like any year.

How many are you hearing total (including the ones you didn’t kinda like)?

Whiney, sorry to hear that or maybe happy for you? Would love to hear what you're up to sometime, drop a fella a line.

Morrisp: Tough question! I can ballpark based on some metrics of what's on my playlists. Figure I think 70/80% of what I hear is worth giving more than a single listen and roughly half sticks. So maybe 3500-4000 tracks a year or so? Generally at least an album a day; on days when I'm traveling or working in the studio, maybe more like four? That doesn't take into account other streams of music and live music and CDs and so forth. This was a year when I made an effort not to do too very much repeat listening.

If you care, here's the current (unorganized and very much incomplete) list of 2018's keepers that are on Spotify. Would be happy to talk about any of these!
https://open.spotify.com/user/forksclovetofu/playlist/5F4O9GGhAEY5zYDDakpCuB

as always, though i'm aware my dilettantism is extreme from a lot of folks perspective, i'm continually aware of the massive amount of well-known, obscure or just unknown-to-me (and often great!) music I'm missing out on. the great thing is that it's not going anywhere and hopefully I will find or be guided to it in good time.

Thx, very interesting! I can’t fathom consuming/processing that much music; it’s really impressive.

Life is easy, albums are hard.

I feel like almost anyone - with the proper handholding - can make a great song, but - to augment your point Al - albums _are_ hard.

Xp Nice of you to say Morris! I consume/process a lot of media, period! Some of it's a function of my pathology, some of it is insatiable curiosity. Even when you hit a run of lousy albums in a row, the payoff high of hearing something new that broadens the soul is almost always worth the investment of time and energy.

Al, how much new music would you say you listen to on a yearly basis?

Singles? Well over 500. Albums are in the 100 range.

Singles Jukebox alone accounts for over 700 tracks a year, so there's that.

At this point, I aim at making two lists every year:

Best 25 Albums
Best 25 Tracks

There was a time not long ago where I was capable of making a list of 50 of each, but those days are gone; I don't listen to quite as much music.

I know there are folks who put tracks from albums on their albums lists, but this has always seemed really weird. That's repetition.

If an album of songs hits me hard enough, that's going on the Albums list. Some folks will say "I love this album so much that I put each of these songs on my Tracks list." Huh? Why? That means you love an album very much; it should be on your Albums list.

If one song on an album outshines the others so brilliantly that the others pale by comparison - and if that one song gets a lot of play from me - that's a sign that it deserves a shot at the Tracks list. The Tracks list is also for songs like "New Light" or "Free Yourself" or "Venice Bitch" where no album exists for consumption yet, and won't for a minute, or something like "Godbody," where the album missed me but I stumbled upon the song very late in the year and was wowed by it.

(Each to his or her own, of course.)

Should read "I know there are folks who put tracks from albums on their albums lists on their tracks lists, but this has always seemed really weird."

As a person who likes the dark arts, I don't do song lists. I do make a Spotify playlist of my favorite songs off my favorite albums but there is no ranking. Actually I often find myself playing it on random. But I only rank albums since that is my preferred format both as a fan and insignificant writer of music criticism.

songs have to really call to me as singles before i put them on a tracks list so there’s not usually much overlap between the two, but yeah i absolutely have “love it if we made it” on my tracks list and a brief inquiry into online relationships on my albums list

i'd love to see a poll that disqualified you, for walking around wishing you could disqualify people

That's a bit dramatic. All I'm suggesting is the form doesn't submit unless at least 25 entries are in there. Pretty standard, but just suggesting 25 instead of 10. It's really not a stretch, that's what our Doom Charts group does. If a person who's job is partly to review and recommend music, can't come up with more then ten albums, then that list probably isn't going to be much good.

that's it, you're disqualified

what my list needed was more boring doom to be counted

If a person who's job is partly to review and recommend music, can't come up with more then ten albums, then that list probably isn't going to be much good.

you like music? name 25 of their albums

l.o.l.

It certainly takes hard work to find good music when many lazy writers can only pick ten good albums out in a year. Yet despite all the shit going on in the world, the amount of surprising, amazing music that's made every year is vast. It's one of humanity's few redeeming qualities. Even if you listen to well over a thousand albums, you'd still miss great stuff. If you think all music is rubbish except for less than 30 albums, then you basically dislike just about ALL THE MUSIC. Last I checked this wasn't the I Hate Music board. And if a person truly believes that the really good stuff can be boiled down to such a small number, I'd be concerned that the lack of ability to enjoy music is a symptom of depression. Try some exercise, sunlight and/or full spectrum light and vitamin D.

you constantly evade the actual point of this conversation because you never get beyond asserting that listing music in volume is equivalent to realizing some other relevant values associated with loving music. you might believe that about yourself, but if your way of articulating that value to others, or even for yourself, is confined to list-picking then i seriously doubt that the exercise would be all that meaningful. i don't know if you are being disingenuous or if you have really been posting here for years without ever understanding the point of genuine music criticism.

if i wanted i could list and 'rank' most of the albums i've heard this year and the list would be impressively long to everyone but healthy vigorous paragons of volumetric music appreciation such as yourself. but it's not hard to recognize that those albums are worthwhile IN SOME BASIC WAY (i'm listening to things that some other relatively experienced or tasteful or differently-situated listeners have liked, too, i'm not just culling shit from the promo bin). that borders on the empty registration of a data point, like capturing biometric data on a fitbit. it's a different matter to form meaningful connections to some of them by experiencing them and reflecting on those experiences.

I guess you're saying that the Pazz and Jop poll is pointless. My argument is longer ballots would result in more varied and interesting results.

The way each person reacts to, processes and interprets music is a very personal, individual thing, which I do appreciate reading about. But to say a poll is completely meaningless without criticism to create context seems pretty patronizing. I think people are fully capable of putting music into their own context. I certainly don't mind blurbs and criticism accompanying lists, but they aren't essential to my using the polls to discover new music.

Christgau was always allowed to list more than 10, but trying to understand why one album is someone's 43rd favorite rather than 44th favorite always seems almost pointless to me.

Correct, that's definitely not the point. A person who has listened to and/or reviewed a lot of music could have a top 10 that is naturally weighted to their own personal tastes. So I might not like any of Christgau's top 10, but could find some cool discoveries lower in his list.

My personal top ten is made up of jangle pop, garage & psych noir, psych prog, hard rock, post-punk and doom, which only appeal to certain people. But I enjoy a pretty wide range and a look at my genre lists (which total over 600 albums) could turn you on to stuff aligned with your own tastes.

the actual answer to this is that the people voting in pazz and jop are (mostly) working music critics, which means that a large chunk of their listening time is spent listening to albums they are reviewing, which may or may not overlap with albums they like, and which by definition takes time away from music discovery.

This just came into my Twitter feed.

For what it's worth, we'll be publishing the ballots again this year. And sorry, @NYC__Native , that we didn't get back to you last year.

— The Village Voice (@villagevoice) December 27, 2018

But for the most part, we all work full time. There may be a few writers who still only listen to what's put in front of their faces in the form of promos and assignments, but those old ways are receding alongside print journalism. But even in traditional journalism, writers are expected to take initiative to do the research to become knowledgeable about their subjects.

There are actually a good number of 50-100 album lists out there as it is (405, The Alternative, Alternative Press, Bandcamp Daily, Billboard, Blare, BrooklynVegan, The Wire, God Is In the TV, Noisey, Piccadilly, PopMatters, The Quietus, Rough Trade, etc.) that are counted by the Albumoftheyear aggregator. Unfortunately they skew the points so heavily toward the top 10 that they don't make much difference in that context (but if you take a look at those lists, most of them have the most interesting, cool discoveries in the lower half).

It would be more work to change the Pazz and Jop Poll, unlikely to happen with the diminished resources. Just wishful thinking as a way to keep it unique and relevant.

But for the most part, we all work full time. There may be a few writers who still only listen to what's put in front of their faces in the form of promos and assignments, but those old ways are receding alongside print journalism. But even in traditional journalism, writers are expected to take initiative to do the research to become knowledgeable about their subjects.

yes, but an album only becomes "my subject" if I am commissioned to write about it in a one-to-two-week window surrounding its release date. otherwise, it isn't my subject, and listening to it means actively not doing my job, i.e. not listening to the album(s) that I am expected to write about/pitch. obviously I still do seek out new and/or older music, but with the knowledge (and weird accompanying guilt) that doing so is the equivalent of playing Solitaire on office time.

also, re: My argument is longer ballots would result in more varied and interesting results.

this is often, in fact, the the opposite of how it works. longer ballots can result in greater consensus, via: "well, fuck, I've only listed 16 albums and I need 20, and I've exhausted everything I really, truly loved this year... might as well throw the Mitski album on there, even though I thought it was just OK and not amazing." (the Mitski album here is just a standin for "consensus album," not a statement on its quality)

That doesn't appear to be the case in the examples I cited.

fwiw I've heard maybe 200 albums from this year and the Mitski is one of the 5 best imo

what exactly is your goal here? to make people feel like they're shitty people who should just stop writing about music? because you're succeeding

writing just gets in the way of list discovery

just stanning for mitski. RYM is going quite hard on the 'mitski is overrated, boo to the critics' angle so i get defensive when an actually-great album like that is used as an example of critical pablum. no personal offence meant at all

I wasn't referring to you but to this whole "you're not a REAL music [noun?] and should be disqualified" thing

Who are you quoting? I never said that. I was responding to the sentiment that Pazz & Jop is no longer relevant, and is redundant when the results are too similar to other polls and aggregates. Expanding ballots to 25, and optionally, up to 100, would definitely make it different. I'm not saying anyone who can't/won't come up with 25 be stripped of their critic credentials. I don't know you katherine, I'k sure you're a great critic and writer, who simply does not like more than 10 albums this year. That's fine. You'll get to submit your 10 picks on P&J along with the others and life will go on.

simply

I'm quoting you:

I'd love to see a poll that allowed for up to 100 ballots, and disqualifies anyone who can't list at least 25.

― Fastnbulbous, Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:03 AM (four days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(also, most aggregate year-end polls that I'm aware of mandate well above 10 votes, and have done so for years, but what are facts, really?)

(this also seems to rest on a bunch of unspoken assumptions: that in any year there are only N possible "consensus picks"; that N is also approximately the size of the ballots on the polls you dislike; that after N albums people's tastes diverge not just into obscurities and into mutually exclusive obscurities; that thus expanding the ballot will produce a wealth of unheard gems instead of simply turning more albums into consensus picks.)

I also said this: "All I'm suggesting is the form doesn't submit unless at least 25 entries are in there"

But did NOT say this:

"you're not a REAL music [noun?]..

Apparently the word "disqualified" triggered this kerfuffle. I'm sorry if that offends you. How about if the form gives you a friendly, "MORE PLEASE!" until you submit at least 25 entries, and it quivers in anticipation and rewards you with unicorns and rainbows when you've completed it?

That's a lot of unspoken assumptions. For the record I never said I dislike Pazz & Jop. I'm glad it's still going, and am sorry that many people think it's irrelevant. The top ten might not be terribly different, but expanding the ballot would definitely change the overall top 100. Obviously nothing would be unheard obscurities, as it's all consensus. Part of the fun is clicking on the contributors who voted for interesting stuff to see their ballots. There's lots of writers I wished I could see more than their top 10. This would be a great opportunity to do so.

Hey, I can post my top 60 if you want.

I voted in Pazz and Jop ca., I don't know - for a number of years in the '00s. And I sometimes had a hard time putting ten albums together because...I was probably listening to old music more and because there were only certain albums each year that interested me. But I don't know, I felt like I had something to contribute anyway? So I voted. For me, it's a question of whether or not you can accept that a critic's voice might be of interest relative to what the critic is interested in (rather than a hypothetical of what the critic came up with when they also listened to a bunch of things they might not have been interested in).