What Is Rockism ?

tho I could see it being confused w the argument that black music in total is the rightful cultural compass and center of all musical dynamism, which there’s a strong case for

what does this mean?

I’m saying the argument he applied to “hip hop” has more currency in the discourse when applied to black music as a whole ... the idea that black popular music is the “culture compass and center of all musical dynamism” (his words) is a a popular one w lots of evidence to back it up

I mean it’s kind of the underlying logic of “appropriation discourse” no?

i guess i'm not sure what 'musical dynamism' is (i assume he doesn't mean 'music dynamics'?) and we're just talking about particular pop/rock Western vernaculars? bc i assume we're not positing that hip hop or black music is the center of whatever 'musical dynamism' is in say eastern european or middle eastern maqam or western art music?

maybe i'm just going back to pom's point that there's a lot of music out there and sometimes these discussions seem to take as granted that the musical forms that exist are a) top 40 pop radio formats and b) rock radio formats.

yeah, BOTH kinds of music!

I mean when I hear what contemporary music people actually listen to in Eastern Europe or the Middle East or especially European “art music” (certainly the avant-garde) popular forms & especially ones influenced by ie house/techno/hip hop etc have a pretty heavy influence on the form and marketing of that music

Obviously there are traditional musical forms that don’t really ever “update” but

ime "traditional" musical forms do update and evolve but you have to be intimate with their discourses to hear the changes

If you listen to contemporary Eastern European or middle eastern or especially European avant- garden music are you claiming you’re not liable to hear the influence, forms, styles built on house or techno or hip hop or R&b? Incorporated with local and traditional sounds?

Sorry for the similar post I thought my last one had deleted so tried retyping

ime "traditional" musical forms do update and evolve but you have to be intimate with their discourses to hear the changes

― Mordy, Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:02 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure I can agree with this... I do think regardless if someone is looking for music that is “not traditional” it tends to be incorporating popular black forms of music

well all music permeates border and boundaries by nature so i expect to hear different genres bleed into each other all the time but is it the primary driver of 'musical dynamism' in those genres (still not clear what that means)? i'm not confident about that.

I mean certainly in the United States the notion that rhythm (& therefore innovations stemming from black music) is a dominant driver of the sound of music’s evolution is even a widely accepted idea... (which classical composer was it that said something along those lines?)

Speaking on a global level it gets infinitely more complex of course but if I pick up a random Bhangra mix cd on Devon there’s a good chance it will have rapping on it

There's plenty of European avant-garde music that doesn't sound especially beholden to house, techno, hip-hop, or R&B to me? You hear those influences in Kurtag or Lachenmann?

(And, obv, even those musics have plenty of European influences; European musics have Indian and Middle Eastern influences, etc.)

the euro avant garde not just in music but in many forms of art has an ongoing relationship w africa via primitivism & going back to african art influence on picasso etc. ...

i didnt say "all european art music sounds like house techno hip hop or R&B" lol

at any rate making this into a global question is mordy's way of muddying the waters imo ... im not claiming to have knowledge on the level of relation between every global genre of music + african roots, and didn't claim that I thought this argument was the capital T Truth, I just said its a dominant argument & there's lots of evidence (undeniably) of the centrality of black music to the evolving sound of contemporary music ... i think you'd have to be a fool though to imply traditional irish music or eastern european music has more of a global footprint than hip hop, techno, R&B, or house

Well, I was responding to

If you listen to contemporary Eastern European or middle eastern or especially European avant- garden music are you claiming you’re not liable to hear the influence, forms, styles built on house or techno or hip hop or R&b?

but the broader claim you're making now definitely makes more sense (although in the same sense that all musics reflect cross-cultural interaction and influence).

xp

i feel like when ppl start to say "all musics reflect cross cultural interaction and influence" and bring up timbaland sampling an egyptian record or something it implies an equality of influence that isn't really reflected by the record ... like if you listen to popular songs in eastern europe & they basically sound like house music filtered through a local sensibility its hard to say 'oh just the usual cross cultural exchange' like this is a house record

Good lord it's just fucking MUSIC
So glad we left the High Fidelity mindset in the 00s!

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots? I'm really uncomfortable with trying to identify a single cultural source as being globally central.

This is a fool’s errand

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots?

surely yes, and that's a correct argument to make

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots? I'm really uncomfortable with trying to identify a single cultural source as being globally central.

― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:51 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if you're going back that far you can argue 'all people come from africa.' i'm talking about art forms that were created in the last couple decades....

Wait what artforms were created in the last couple decades

Glitchy GIF Tumblr art

Those “ironic” tin signs with a 1950s style drawing of a smiling woman, and a slogan like, “No one cares about your diet... just eat your salad and be sad.”

(I genuinely love those, btw)

Wait what artforms were created in the last couple decades

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 20, 2018 1:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

house, hip hop, techno?

last 'few' decades sorry

“Move over, coffee... this is a job for alcohol!”

Are there food critics out there writing about Burger King and sour patch kids etc these days?

“Few” = 50 years?

Yeah ok lol

I dont think any of those genres are particularly “dynamic” at this point but thats just me

They are def rooted in black community tho, sure

I dont think any of those genres are particularly “dynamic” at this point but thats just me

You don't think 19-year-old idiots mumbling about depression on Soundcloud are the future of music? Racist.

The Definitely Not Racist has logged on

Anyway here’s a timely investigation

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html

Few” = 50 years?

Yeah ok lol

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 20, 2018 1:33 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

We’re comparing it to the scale of Europe inventing the widely adopted notion of tonality so yes this is still relatively recent

Also techno was not invented 50 years ago, lol

yeah talking out of the side of my neck a bit on that one (what's the first "techno" record? Kraftwerk? idk lol) whereas house and hip hop both have conventionally agreed-upon start dates which are closer to the 40 year mark, my bad

Anyway here’s a timely investigation

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html🕸

https://variety.com/2020/music/reviews/selena-gomez-rare-album-review-1203463571/

“Rare” is one of the best pop albums to be released in recent memory, and — as it does for artists ranging from Robyn and Charli XCX to Max Martin’s more adventurous productions — it feels like that term does a discredit to this sophisticated, precisely written and expertly produced music.

lol

Perhaps they should call it something like Sophistipop

In the new movie Trolls World Tour, it is revealed that Trolls representing all different genres (and sub-genres) of music used to live in harmony, but are now separated. Queen Barb of the Hard Rock Trolls (Ozzy plays their senile king) sets out to conquer all the other lands, making Hard Rock the only music. Our heroes, the Pop Trolls, have to save the day and unite all the genres again. Barb hates Pop, says it’s “not real music, too repetitive, the lyrics stink,” etc. I won’t tell you how it ends!

Stereogum had a whole piece about this on Friday.

I won’t tell you how it ends!

xp Terribly written piece, desperately straining for a “critique” and misrepresenting basic plot points to do it.

Until utopia is achieved and everyone makes an effort to enjoy that obscure and much-maligned art we call pop music while its devotees do absolutely nothing to meaningfully engage with other subgenres even as they clamour for more inclusivity, the need for endearingly didactic allegories will continue unabated.

Part of the story is that Pop snuffed out musical diversity in the past, but you’d have to watch the movie to know that.

Care to tell us more? (Not trolling, for real.)