that’s a great post dyl and definitely something i’ve been thinking about since jingle ball, which included g-eazy (talk about white rappers having lower bars) and khalid — the latter of whom had the second best crowd reception after shawn mendes
― maura, Sunday, 16 December 2018 23:49 (five years ago) link
terrific post dyl, thank you.
― |Restore| |Restart| |Quit| (Doctor Casino), Monday, 17 December 2018 03:43 (five years ago) link
x-post-- the DC Jingle Ball didn't even include Khalid. NY & LA got Cardi B on their Jingle ball shows.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 04:12 (five years ago) link
looks like Camila Cabello was also only on NY & LA jingle ball lineups. Virtually all white in many places
https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8479094/iheart-radio-jingle-ball-full-lineup-cardi-b-shawn-mendes-calvin-harris
― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 04:15 (five years ago) link
What percentage of the Billboard formula is assigned to streaming vs. radio, iTunes sales, CD sales and so on?
― skip, Monday, 17 December 2018 06:10 (five years ago) link
camila was in boston
― maura, Monday, 17 December 2018 11:30 (five years ago) link
xp it's been a while since billboard stated the specific target ratios they aim for but i would say that streaming accounts for maybe half of the hot 100's points lately. airplay accounts for less than streaming, but not by a whole lot. the influence of download sales trails far behind the other two metrics since their volume has declined so dramatically in recent years, though they are probably overrepresented compared to how (un)important they are as revenue-generators in today's industry. i believe physical sales still count technically but have a nearly negligible effect, as the physical singles market is essentially dead outside of record store day. for the albums chart things are different but, like, a cd sale counts the same as buying the album over itunes.
ty for the kind words y'all :)
― dyl, Monday, 17 December 2018 14:29 (five years ago) link
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-et-ms-rhythm-and-beats-state-of-rnb-20181214-htmlstory.html
The LA Times article cites this Billboard one-
https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8054003/hip-hop-rb-pop-radio-songs-crossover
Which also deals with these angles:
It may seem counterintuitive to radio outsiders, but Ken Johnson, vp of urban programming for Cumulus Media, believes that the downturn in crossover actually helps mainstream R&B/hip-hop stations. "On the urban side of the ball, I don't look for records to cross over, per se," he explains. "If they don't cross over, it benefits urban radio more. Listeners who are consumers of that music, if they're not getting that on top 40 radio, there's a few places they can still get it, and one of those is urban radio."
As to the reason behind fewer female acts at R&B/hip-hop radio and fewer crossover female acts, radio programmers suggest women are battling both a sexist music industry and the dominance of hip-hop, which rules urban radio but has rarely made room for multiple female artists. "Women have always had a more challenging time in this industry,"
― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 21:04 (five years ago) link
That LA Times article is fascinating (I’d been meaning to read it since it went up).
“I remember when R&B singers sang the song and the rappers did a hook. Now singers are just doing the hooks. And, actually, some rappers are doing the songs and the hooks,” R&B star Tamia says with a laugh.
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, 17 December 2018 21:43 (five years ago) link
Still have to read the whole series of articles
That one has the point Dyl made but with less specifics:
In fact, according to a survey Billboard released earlier this year, the volume of R&B and hip-hop songs crossing over to pop radio shrank dramatically between 1993 and 2016.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 17 December 2018 22:20 (five years ago) link
Yeah I was actually waiting for the workweek to begin (today) to use this one as a listening guide: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-et-ms-rhythm-and-beats-risk-taking-women-in-rnb-20181214-htmlstory.html
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, 17 December 2018 22:31 (five years ago) link
billboard does have a strict mathematical formula that applies to album equivalent units (https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8427967/billboard-changes-streaming-weighting-hot-100-billboard-200) that is meant to mimic the way there was diff monetary values attached to music back when people actually paid for music a la carte. my description there is lacking but it was explained to me by billboard's chart guy to me once & i still don't really get it exactly... but the way they divide streams now by paid vs ad supported is bcuz they see it as a way of having the current charts maintain some sort of historical integrity
i think the "formula" for the hot 100 as it were is fluid based on market consumption, but i think streams to airplay is like roughly a 60/40 ratio right now? you can see in gary trust's weekly stories about the hot 100 that the raw #s between spins and streams for major tracks are pretty similar, but the record breaking streaming weeks i.e. for "thank u next" or 'in my feelings") still hit #s that even huge airplay weeks can't touch. the big difference really is just that streams hit way faster..... songs w/ huge streaming numbers but no airplay regularly debut in the top 10 (the big songs off pretty much any major rap album nowadays), and if radio ever catches on then you end up w/ a giant smash--"lucid world" or "sicko mode" for instance. conversely a song w/ big airplay but relatively little streaming i.e. panic at the disco "high hopes" can also make it into the top 10 it's just an ascent that happens over much a more protracted period of time
― J0rdan S., Monday, 17 December 2018 23:29 (five years ago) link
"lucid dreams" i mean obv
― J0rdan S., Monday, 17 December 2018 23:31 (five years ago) link
record breaking streaming weeks i.e. for "thank u next" or 'in my feelings") still hit #s that even huge airplay weeks can't touch
this is a really good point! and it also reminds me: peak airplay audience numbers today don't even come close to what was being attained by the biggest airplay hits several years back. like, just to pick out huge airplay smashes from the past few years, along with what they were racking up at/near their peak (don't have exhaustive data saved)...
(2018) maroon 5 feat. cardi b "girls like you": 128 million audience impressions(2017) ed sheeran "shape of you": 185 million(2016) adele "hello": 170 million(2015) mark ronson "uptown funk": 190 million(2014) pharrell williams "happy": 226 million(2013) robin thicke "blurred lines": 229 million
"girls like you" was the most-heard song in the country for 16 straight weeks -- no other song was even close to that this year (or, actually, most years in general). and yet its airplay peak still pales, by far, in comparison to what huge airplay smashes were pulling not too long ago. it's actually a pretty shocking decline over such a short period that i highly doubt is matched by decline in radio listenership overall.
it's worth noting that many of those radio mega-smashes did so well partly because they also got strong rhythmic and black radio play, whether they were crossing from urban to pop ("happy") or in the other direction ("hello", "uptown funk"). given the extent to which rhythmic and black radio hits are being isolated to those two formats, it stands to reason that big airplay hits will continue to have a fairly modest reach compared to where they were a few years ago. and since streaming services are still growing i can't help but wonder if we will reach a point when the top streaming hits each week are consistently, rather than sporadically as it is now, being heard more than the top radio hits.
― dyl, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 01:12 (five years ago) link
isn't the reduction in peak airplay impressions also a result of time spent with the radio each week being down - even though weekly reach is still essentially flat?
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 08:39 (five years ago) link
yeah that would certainly contribute
― dyl, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 02:34 (five years ago) link
So what are the demographics on all of this? I have a totally anecdotal sense that the top 40 station in my town is mostly targeted at 25-45 year old white women, which would definitely explain a lack of hip-hop crossover. Their morning DJs are in their 40s and spend a lot of time talking about their kids.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 02:55 (five years ago) link
Whereas the urban station has no morning show at all and just plays Drake-Migos-Drake-Cardi-Drake-Malone etc.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 02:56 (five years ago) link
Part of the problem may be in thinking of pop stations as mainstream and urban stations as something lesser, when they're actually both just niches. (Even if one niche is say 40 percent larger in its reach than the other.)
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 02:58 (five years ago) link
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, December 18, 2018 9:55 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
music played in public spaces and offices
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:06 (five years ago) link
I think some suburban white kids listen to top 40 stations in the car
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 20 December 2018 15:38 (five years ago) link
damn kids
Is there any campaign to, at least, stop radio stations editing out black musicians' verses? It's such a shit petty thing to do.
(Or maybe a campaign to ban Maroon 5 like China did)
― sbahnhof, Sunday, 23 December 2018 19:52 (five years ago) link
i'm not aware of any organized campaigns to improve radio programming decisions (obv i'm not counting label promotions promo campaigns or online stans' requesting campaigns)
lol i actually wrote an email to one of the two top 40 stations in my city when it aired an edit of fifth harmony's "work from home" with ty dolla $ign edited out. (the edit just replaced his section with eight bars of the girls going "work. work. work. work. ...") basically i said that there was no logically consistent rationale that could explain the conscious erasure of his voice from their programming other than his proximity to (black) hip-hop culture + said that was very shitty and says a lot about what they think of their audience (in more eloquent words lol).
they forwarded it to one of the music directors (who i think is now assistant pd) who actually wrote back. basically she gave a canned response of 'thank you for the thoughtful criticism, we make all of our programming decisions on a case-by-case basis and respond to listener feedback' but also said things specifically about hip-hop that made it clear that she actually read/sorta-understood where my argument was coming from lol
― dyl, Sunday, 23 December 2018 21:05 (five years ago) link
that was two years ago when "work from home" was big
basically top 40 is doing all the things today that used to be expected from hot ac stations: editing out rap (or just black) guest vocals, playing more songs that make labels little money thru direct consumer behavior (downloads + streaming) but still 'test well' in passive audience research while accepting less black crossover, formulating a mix that mom and daughter can both listen to in the car or that can be put on in a waiting room, etc.
of course hot ac still does all these things as well which means that lately sometimes the only way to tell the difference between stations of each format is the taglines, lol
― dyl, Sunday, 23 December 2018 21:16 (five years ago) link
Soooo...it feels like this week is some kind of landmark for 21st century whiteness on the Hot 100
1. Oliver Anthony- Rich Men North of Richmond2. Luke Combs- Fast Car3. Morgan Wallen- Last Night4. Taylor Swift- Cruel Summer
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 16:24 (seven months ago) link
Ugh
― curmudgeon, Friday, 25 August 2023 16:34 (seven months ago) link
Holy shit, that song made #1(??)
― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp), Friday, 25 August 2023 16:54 (seven months ago) link
https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/
― curmudgeon, Friday, 25 August 2023 17:00 (seven months ago) link
That's fucked up!
― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp), Friday, 25 August 2023 17:01 (seven months ago) link
https://thenewinquiry.com/blog/american-sajaegi/
― Iain Mew (if), Friday, 25 August 2023 17:01 (seven months ago) link
I hope this makes his life harder
― brimstead, Friday, 25 August 2023 18:08 (seven months ago) link
Good article. At the GOP debate the moderator said that Rich Men song was #1 on Billboard, and I assumed it was a digital download chart. This is way bigger and crazier.
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 18:36 (seven months ago) link
Soooo...it feels like this week is some kind of landmark for 21st century whiteness on the Hot 1001. Oliver Anthony- Rich Men North of Richmond2. Luke Combs- Fast Car3. Morgan Wallen- Last Night4. Taylor Swift- Cruel Summer
seems weird to lump Luke Combs and Taylor Swift in with Oliver Anthony and Morgan Wallen in this context
― c u (crüt), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:15 (seven months ago) link
I knew that "Rich Men" was #1, I didn't realize that a four-year-old T-Swift song had made a resurgence.
― jaymc, Friday, 25 August 2023 19:17 (seven months ago) link
xpost not really. Luke Combs is a country artist and Swift started in country music. We've had a summer where a white superstar's tour has overshadowed everything else.
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:18 (seven months ago) link
xp agree, Swift doesn't really seem relevant here (and #5 is Rema & Selena Gomez, fwiw)
― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:19 (seven months ago) link
20 years ago this week the top 10 was:
Beyonce- Crazy in LoveChingy- Right ThurrNelly- Shake Ya Tailfeather50 Cent- PIMPFabolous- Into YouLil Jon- Get LowPharrell- Frontin'matchbox 20- unwellThe Black Eyed Peas- Where Is the LoveLumidee- Never Leave You
This week the only Black artists in the top 10 are Rema, Gunna & Nicki Minaj (featuring Ice Spice)
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:25 (seven months ago) link
the year of chingy
― Bongo Jongus, Friday, 25 August 2023 19:44 (seven months ago) link
On the plus side, Jason Aldean's "Try That in a Small Town" (which also reached #1 a couple weeks back) is plummeting like a stone
― fair but so uncool beliefs here (Eric H.), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:45 (seven months ago) link
would poll
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 25 August 2023 19:46 (seven months ago) link
xp it may have fallen far from its perch at the top, but it is gaining a lot in airplay at the country format (where it had been struggling pre-controversy) and in general seems likely to stabilize + do much better in the long run than a jason aldean song otherwise would have in 2023
― dyl, Friday, 25 August 2023 21:08 (seven months ago) link
xposts ok i didn't realize that by "21st century whiteness" you meant "country music"
― c u (crüt), Friday, 25 August 2023 21:39 (seven months ago) link
Not sure I understand your quibble. Is Taylor Swift not white?
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 21:49 (seven months ago) link
This is a thread about how white artists have supplanted black artists at the top of the charts. It’s been going on for awhile now, but the invasion of country acts is a fairly recent thing.
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 21:51 (seven months ago) link
I think I just misunderstood your post - I thought you meant "whiteness" as in white supremacy because "Rich Men" and Morgan Wallen are on there
― c u (crüt), Friday, 25 August 2023 21:55 (seven months ago) link
The world-conquering Korean boy band BTS has spoken out directly against sajaegi in the past, and it’s easy to see why. The group’s fans like to view them as insurgent underdogs fighting for truth and virtuousness against a corrupt, dishonest world. In the Korean market, this means viewing them as true artists operating in an industry that revolves around manufactured groups. In America, it means seeing them as freedom fighters who seek to overcome the racist, nationalist gatekeeping that keeps the pop mainstream white and English-speaking. In both cases, it is of paramount importance to both fans and the group themselves that their chart victories are seen as legitimate.
The New Rockism
― budo jeru, Friday, 25 August 2023 21:57 (seven months ago) link
xp Fwiw, I did too (as opposed to this being the first time four white artists have occupied the top 4 slots, if that is the case/point)
― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp), Friday, 25 August 2023 21:58 (seven months ago) link
oliver anthony being able to sustain across multiple songs what jason aldean could not does not surprise me
― xheugy eddy (D-40), Friday, 25 August 2023 22:07 (seven months ago) link
Obviously having a number 1 by a white guy bitching about welfare is a bit different than having the top spots filled with Miley, Timberlake, Katy Perry and Adele or whoever.
― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, 25 August 2023 22:11 (seven months ago) link