Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

No-one can compare with an American man tbf.

First sensible post. 🔥🦅🔥

not American fwiw

🔥🔥🔥🔥🤠🤑🤑🤠🤠🔥🔥🔥🔥

(xp) I think we all know that by now.

All North and South Americans are American tbf.

Of course!

As long as we have to swear fealty to the queen I'll consider us closer to british but fair enough

Quebec would like to have a word with you.

revisiting the last week or so of this thread today to reconsider but wanted to pass along this suggested read for people who'd expressed curiosity about what a trans male orientation to masculinity can look like

In this groundbreaking new book, the author, a trans man, trains to fight in a charity match at Madison Square Garden while struggling to untangle the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence. Through his experience boxing—learning to get hit, and to hit back; wrestling with the camaraderie of the gym; confronting the betrayals and strength of his own body—McBee examines the weight of male violence, the pervasiveness of gender stereotypes, and the limitations of conventional masculinity. A wide-ranging exploration of gender in our society, Amateur is ultimately a story of hope, as McBee traces a new way forward, a new kind of masculinity, inside the ring and outside of it.

In this graceful, stunning, and uncompromising exploration of living, fighting, and healing, we gain insight into the stereotypes and shifting realities of masculinity today through the eyes of a new man.

https://www.amazon.com/Amateur-True-Story-About-Makes/dp/1501168746/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1544999933&sr=1-1&keywords=amateur+thomas+page+mcbee

hmm

im not violent am i less inherently culpable in my masculinity as a result, and, if so, to what extent would you say

as in to say i think this is v much framing and begging the question:

the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence

I think people who are angry and violeny lack self-command, which is an important “masculine” virtue in my book. I never felt a gendered pressure to be less in control.

I think, though—and I’m not being sarcastic—that I might be too dumb to understand gender. I never understood caculus either.

you know I think that might be me as well, and the certainty with which so many make declarations about it is very alien to me

im sure yer admissions will be treated with the appropriate respect and admiration lads

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

Atavistic residues of aggressive behavior prevailing in animal life, determined by testosterone, remain attenuated in man and suppressed through familial and social inhibitions. However, it still manifests itself in various intensities and forms from; thoughts, anger, verbal aggressiveness, competition, dominance behavior, to physical violence. Testosterone plays a significant role in the arousal of these behavioral manifestations in the brain centers involved in aggression and on the development of the muscular system that enables their realization. There is evidence that testosterone levels are higher in individuals with aggressive behavior, such as prisoners who have committed violent crimes. Several field studies have also shown that testosterone levels increase during the aggressive phases of sports games. In more sensitive laboratory paradigms, it has been observed that participant’s testosterone rises in the winners of; competitions, dominance trials or in confrontations with factitious opponents. Aggressive behavior arises in the brain through interplay between subcortical structures in the amygdala and the hypothalamus in which emotions are born and the prefrontal cognitive centers where emotions are perceived and controlled. The action of testosterone on the brain begins in the embryonic stage. Earlier in development at the DNA level, the number of CAG repeats in the androgen receptor gene seems to play a role in the expression of aggressive behavior. Neuroimaging techniques in adult males have shown that testosterone activates the amygdala enhancing its emotional activity and its resistance to prefrontal restraining control. This effect is opposed by the action of cortisol which facilitates prefrontal area cognitive control on impulsive tendencies aroused in the subcortical structures. The degree of impulsivity is regulated by serotonin inhibiting receptors, and with the intervention of this neurotransmitter the major agents of the neuroendocrine influence on the brain process of aggression forms a triad. Testosterone activates the subcortical areas of the brain to produce aggression, while cortisol and serotonin act antagonistically with testosterone to reduce its effects.

Not so vexing tbph.

I will say it's a relief of sorts when trans/nb ppl I know say, for instance, that they sometimes misgender themselves in conversation, or find some new bit of vernacular that they think more precisely aligns with what's going on with them. There's a fluidity that seems at odds with the didacticism of online that can sometimes crop up

on the flipside of this I also know someone who identifies as a trans TERF, a designation I find fascinating in abstract but uhh am obviously not rushing to discuss the particulars of with other nb people in my life

wau

im not violent am i less inherently culpable in my masculinity as a result, and, if so, to what extent would you say

as in to say i think this is v much framing and begging the question:

the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence

― gabbnebulous (darraghmac), Monday, December 17, 2018 5:33 PM (fifty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ah but you've zeroed in on a phrase on a book jacket; for a relationship to be vexed it's got to be complicated and worthy of nuance, and the vexation is presumably explored with appropriate nuance in the text itself -- i'll have the book by wednesday, looking forward to filling in some shading.

it looks good. we're all violent to some degree

I will say it's a relief of sorts when trans/nb ppl I know say, for instance, that they sometimes misgender themselves in conversation

sometimes in conversation and way too often in my brain, it takes a lot

map hit the nail on the head imo with that post about the heightened importance of gender in our society. Its like people are so obsessed with gendering themselves and others, drawing lines in the sand and defending them, that it gets blown up into this bloated and bizarre thing that dominates our entire being when it really is just a facet of ourselves

Sure okay. The consequences to women and people who present as atypically gendered are real, though. People who harass/harm/whatever these other groups don't stop to ask us, "Hey, do you feel, like, really feminine today? I figure if you're not prioritizing your gender identity, it's all good--I'll follow that other woman home from the train instead."

This may be common knowledge to some- I can never tell- but reading about the native americans and other cultures, the two spirits and their historical views on gender may be helpful, if not just interesting. There are many other articles that are more succinct but I am linking one from a more mainstream newsource. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america

io, i didn't mean to imply that women and atypically gendered people should place less emphasis on their gender as a means to be persecuted less. More so, I meant that societal gender roles, particularly male ones, inflate the importance of gender and breed convoluted rules, pressures, and the kind of persecution you are talking about

hard to know that you meant "men" when you wrote "people", boobie
just sayin

I've always been interested in things written about different experiences and ideas about gender by men who have transitioned, there's often some striving for solidity that I don't feel, or epiphanies and descriptions of 'ah, so this is what it's like to be a man' experiences that seem alien or off to me. mb not as alien as all these posts from americans, but still

not as alien as all these posts from americans

a board description imo

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/a7dssc/how_do_im22_show_bro_love/

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/old-boys-trump-kavanaugh-moonves-epstein-childish-masculinity.html

The Old Boy is so essentially dishonest that his lies seem almost innocent. An Old Boy lies fluently and to your face, and he will explode in rage if you point this out to him not because you’re wrong (this is key) but because you don’t matter and neither does the truth; an Old Boy gets to say and do what he likes. The Old Boy recognizes some authorities. He smiles at those he considers fellow Boys—there’s a faintly embarrassing abjection to this performance when it happens. (See Kavanaugh bowing and scraping to Trump when Trump introduced him as his nominee, or how solicitously Trump acts around Vladimir Putin.)

The flip side is that the Old Boy considers his mere presence a gift to those he sees as his inferiors. As a result, any honor conferred upon him is no more than his due. So yes, he lies, but only because that’s what a blinkered world requires in order for him to get what he is owed. To bring about the correct outcome, he gets to lie, and you get to believe it. That’s your privilege.

If you opt out of this peculiar script on which so much of the Old Boy’s worldview depends, the subtext of his answer to any question is “how dare you”? (Think of Kavanaugh addressing Sen. Amy Klobuchar during that hearing, or of Trump addressing the press. “No, no, we don’t answer that,” Bill Cosby replied when he was asked about the allegations against him.) This makes Old Boys slippery and confusing to deal with. The Old Boy doesn’t really answer a question because he denies that he can be questioned. And money and power have gotten plenty of people to play along and make this true. The Old Boy is fragility itself, buttressed by a hot and constant wind.

https://www.guernicamag.com/kiese-laymon-i-didnt-want-to-be-a-silent-survivor-of-moral-failure-anymore/

I just start every morning asking myself what I want to lie about.

hard not to love kiese laymon

Kiese is the best.

We just bought our 7yo her first diary and she asked me if boys have diaries and it struck me as sad that they don't. Diaries encourage reflection and interiority and there's no good reason we don't encourage our boys to use them as well. When I was a boy who wrote a lot I got the message from various authority figures that diaries were for girls and I could journal (whatever that was) if I absolutely had to. But there definitely wasn't the same culture that existed for the girls of my age.

all the boys on ilx have diaries

ILX is our collective diary.

stop snooping!!!!!!!!!!

I kept a journal till I was about 19. Never occurred to me till now that that was unusual.

I had a diary when I was 13 but people kept reading it (my sister, people at school) and that ruined the idea that I could write out my thoughts without people judging me. Kinda wish I had kept it up because it would probably be nice to read now I'm middle aged but I would've been so guarded I wouldn't have written anything honest anyway because I would've been thinking of who would read it and how they would mock me

i had a blog and some .docs

I sent long winded emails to close friends while in a drunken stupor.

i'm sometimes sad about how little i actually write these days. there are lots of things i think about and don't say, even to myself, and in that undone writing are reckonings i'm avoiding, against my best interest.

I filled something like 40 handwritten notebooks (160 pages each) between age 18 and 28. I haven't thrown them out, even though I never go back and open any of them. They helped me learn how to write flexibly and fluently, and they gave focus to my random thoughts. But as for having lasting value, nope. It doesn't matter. It was good for me at the time.

Is "journal" just guy for "diary"?

Or is "diary" girl for "journal"?

I have written in a blank book almost every day for 30 years. I think I usually call it a journal. I don't think I have ever called it a diary. But I don't think there's an interest in difference.

* interesting difference

Interesting indeed. Many famous diaries were written by men, however (Samuel Pepys and Franz Kafka come to mind). Maybe the association with femininity is a more recent development.

I kept a diary from about 12 to 22 and this is the first time I've ever heard it's a "girl thing"

I kept a diary in high school only to discover that writing about your feelings is a fundamentally girly act, duh.

Besides, everybody knows that Anne Frank's is the only diary in existence.

add to the stew that women's writing is only seen as valuable when it trucks in feelings/interior life
diaries can be our attempt at our experience & writing having some sort of relevance
at least that was my impression as a young diarist