it's a p sad day when people wield guilt towards other posters on a messageboard in which barely anyone knows much about anyone else, seemingly for disagreeing with them. it isn't as if all women agree about everything ever said. many women would disagree with the hashtag slinging or the self-pity going on here - many feminists.
it's also sad people generally posting in good faith are reduced to citing jobs and coworkers etc in response to rhetorical traps/hashtags and p much bad faith posts, when the only acceptable response to the people making those posts would, i think, be 'i am sorry' or 'i agree'.
and even typing this is to be instantly challenged/examined etc because obv nobody could actually believe in equality and a better world and not verbatim agree with anyone who self-appoints as an unimpeachable guardian of the same.
i don't know how people are so certain that their way is the right way. it must be nice.
― FernandoHierro, Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:10 (five years ago) link
as definitions of problems go, this one seems so extensive as to make it impossible to use as the basis for any solution at all. if "all men are the problem", then "the problem" is coextensive with our identity as men and to solve this we must no longer be men, but something that falls under the category of not-men.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, December 13, 2018 12:09 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Hey, this is actually true, tbh!
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:16 (five years ago) link
it's so easy to not be a man, you just stop and boom
I often think to myself, do men know that it's all optional, they don't have to do that
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:17 (five years ago) link
As I recall, the time-honored alternative is to become mice.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:19 (five years ago) link
Sure, whatever, you’ve got any number of options
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:20 (five years ago) link
fwiw it was not my intention to be defensive or join a defensiveness chorus or whatever, I had hoped my studying-at-the-strip-club anecdote was merely passably amusing.
I think there's something tricky at work here where of late we've been primarily discussing a particularly awful social phenomenon (incels) that almost none of us has any direct relationship with, culturally speaking. I actually do hang out with a dece number of younger men thanks to left activism-y shit but in those spaces, ime, outright toxicity *tends* to be a little more isolated and therefore able to be called out (though of course there are plenty of examples where this has not been the case.) I think many of us resort to rewinding our clocks and thinking about our individual experiences and behaviours because we're trying to understand this level of reaction that incels exhibit
― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:22 (five years ago) link
unlearning the patriarchy is a lifelong process, any man who immediately claims "I'm not sexist" in the face of generalized criticism probably has more work to do than someone who says "I still have things to learn and being less defensive helps me do that"
― sleeve, Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:09 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
OTM. Your identity isn't going to crumble to the ground if you maybe stop and ponder your privilege in lieu of letting your instadefensiveness off the leash.
― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:23 (five years ago) link
― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:23 (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
why must it be a tenet of your own self-flagellation that all others accused must also confess
does that not somewhat spoil the purity of yr noble sacrifice like
― Moussa- ppl gon die (darraghmac), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:27 (five years ago) link
I think many of us resort to rewinding our clocks and thinking about our individual experiences and behaviours because we're trying to understand this level of reaction that incels exhibit
Correct.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:30 (five years ago) link
xpost I issue no directives, my brother. Feel free to eschew my hairshirt.
― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:32 (five years ago) link
idk man others on this thread didn't seem chill with people momentarily forgetting to check their privilege
― Trϵϵship, Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:40 (five years ago) link
I think many of us resort to rewinding our clocks and thinking about our individual experiences and behaviours because we're trying to understand this level of reaction that incels exhibitCorrect.
― pomenitul, Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:30 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Agree, and this happens frequently and I said so several days ago: I think posters itt have been doing an ilx speciality, which is, in seeking to understand, are looking for commonalities with the phenomenon. This often results in a) ppl being less critical of the problematic thing, and b) over-identifying with criticisms of the problematic thing. Like, "Oh now we're vilifying all socially awkward young men who feel unattractive? I had that experience and it scarred me so maybe we should be more sympathetic to men who self-identify with this hate group, maybe if we just understood them more..." and so on.
NOT that men don't suffer or don't deserve mental health or don't need community, and NOT that falsely masculinized roles and expectations aren't harmful to men's health (they 100% are). But those things can be (are!) true and at the same time it can be true that no one needs to over-identify with fourchan incels or whatever who are attracted to hate groups who are being discussed at the time.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:43 (five years ago) link
It's been invoked already itt, but I really cannot stump hard enough for group therapy/couples counseling in helping to resolve these issues. Its inordinately helpful in learning to own your own butthurt.
― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:46 (five years ago) link
xp -- terrific post, IO
― WmC, Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:48 (five years ago) link
any man who immediately claims "I'm not sexist" in the face of generalized criticism...
Sexism is not a state of being, but a quality that can inhere in a thought or action. While very few men (or women) would be able to draw this distinction, there is a somewhat instinctive tendency to react against it, just as there is an instinctive reaction among men to rebel against assertions that "all men are alike" coupled with the assertion that their likeness consists of something immoral or unpleasant. This is on a par with young boys asserting that all girls have cooties.
It is easy to feel the injustice of being existentially in the wrong. But it is perfectly fair and right to call out particular statements or actions as sexist, by connecting them to wrong assumptions or harmful consequences.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:49 (five years ago) link
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:17 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Like yo.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:54 (five years ago) link
no one needs to over-identify with fourchan incels or whatever who are attracted to hate groups who are being discussed at the time
I completely agree with this. I'm just not convinced that it's what happened itt. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I mean this sincerely – perception does matter here), but most male posters who reminisced about past situations resembling inceldom came to the conclusion that despite whatever external factors may have contributed to their (self-)loathing at the time, sooner or later came the acknowledgment that they were very much to blame, which is precisely what incels are unwilling to do.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:56 (five years ago) link
tbh when ppl say "oh you can just opt out of manhood" I just....have no idea what that means, practically speaking
― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:57 (five years ago) link
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I mean this sincerely – perception does matter here), but most male posters who reminisced about past situations resembling inceldom came to the conclusion that despite whatever external factors may have contributed to their (self-)loathing at the time, sooner or later came the acknowledgment that they were very much to blame, which is precisely what incels are unwilling to do.
― pomenitul, Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:56 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think that started to happen and yes, that's a good thing. But it's exhausting for women (and several women said this on the other thread) to wade through this process every single time. It's not a remote logic problem being considered and turned this way and that, that we can consider without personal involvement. We feel it like a punch in the gut or a tidal wave of nausea. We have been harassed, stalked, assaulted, blamed, not believed, insulted, ignored, and taken our broken selves to therapy or whatever, and gotten our shit back together. And we are trying to tell men what is up. And we get: "This is exactly the same as telling girls they have cooties."
Claro. I see how it is.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:06 (five years ago) link
Seems to me the best one can do is to take that as a given, be vigilant and to be constantly interrogating one's choices, language and behaviours - past and present - and accept a certain amount of oscillation/fucking up. Fwiw, my post about the strip club was implicitly an 'I've been shit; I'm trying to be better' post. And probably an 'ooh, look what I've seen' boast. I dunno.
― Have the Rams stopped screaming yet, Lloris? (Chinaski), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:10 (five years ago) link
In telling men what is up after your having been harassed, stalked, assaulted, blamed, not believed, insulted, and ignored, are you telling them that all men are alike in harassing, stalking, assaulting, blaming, not believing, insulting, and ignoring women? If so, I submit this is unjustified. If not, then you have misunderstood what I wrote.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:12 (five years ago) link
xpost I don't think there was any contention about that^^^. Personal experiences are fine in trying to understand incels if that's your methodology. But If a person has in the back of their minds the epidemic of men murdering or raping their wives and partners and strangers on the street and how victims of sex trafficking will get longer sentences than men who rape, Trump Kavanaugh Bolsonaro etc etc it's irritating to constantly and excessively come across hurt man feelings if some generalization about the awfulness of men is expressed, such as, men in groups sometimes do terrible things they wouldn't do by themselves and thus men in groups can be terrifying for some people. Apply that to virtual men in groups, the incel community/doxxing/online mob mentality etc.
xpost what inorbit just said.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:13 (five years ago) link
And we get: "This is exactly the same as telling girls they have cooties."
You can make a valid point without deliberately misquoting me.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:17 (five years ago) link
apropos of nothing, I would just like to point out that ILX thread search results for "girls" (I was looking for that girls room thread ref'd above) are pretty horrifying. Early 2000s seem like the definite low point.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:26 (five years ago) link
Do you feel like male ILX posters are generally oblivious to the gender-specific issues you face as women (not trolling, once again, it's a genuine question)? I personally draw a distinction between 'addressing men in general (i.e. more or less half of the world population, which does indeed tend towards the despicable)' and 'shooting the shit with 2018 ILX dudes/lads'. Not to say we who haunt these pages are utterly devoid of misogyny (that would be absurd), but I don't think it makes sense to thrust the burden of male representation so thoroughly upon us. I would be more supportive of generalizations about men in another context (in most other contexts, actually), as a matter of priority.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:29 (five years ago) link
― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, December 13, 2018 12:57 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Here are some cool practical ways to stop being a man that I've tried to do since I decided I didn't need to front like I was a man
0. Stop being a man1. Talk quieter2. Adopt more compact body language3. Shave your face4. Listen to women5. Dress provocatively6. Focus on being nonthreatening to those around you in public7. Identify miscellaneous social scripts of masculinity you've adopted and stop doing them8. Strengthen friendships with non-men
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:31 (five years ago) link
Patriarchy survives only as long as it continues to coerce perfectly ordinary people into being men
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:35 (five years ago) link
silby do u think that some ppl are born men and it isn't a choice and if not how do you account for transmen? similar question re performativity. i see a whole bunch of problems w/ your argument here that i wonder if you've thought through at all?
― Mordy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:36 (five years ago) link
check check and doublecheck!https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20140528231244%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2F8%2F81%2FVarys-Profile-HD.png&f=1
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:37 (five years ago) link
are u guys taking silby's posts literally cuz I detect some humor there, maybe that's just me
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:38 (five years ago) link
mea culpa if he's just taking the piss
― Mordy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:38 (five years ago) link
I mean number 5 and 6 seem pretty contradictory...
also lol this thread, prior to it I thought silby was a woman and Yerac was a man
live and learn I guess
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link
lol
― pomenitul, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link
I've thought about all this a lot actually but thanks~ xp
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link
so can u explain or
― Mordy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:40 (five years ago) link
I'm always both joking and not joking
I'm not really competent to address the relationship of trans men with cis masculinity but it's been brought up itt before in response to my posts. I think that in a world without gender-based oppression, which is what we're all working towards, the category of "men" wouldn't exist, and that people who are trans men now will be freer in that world too.
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:42 (five years ago) link
I typed and erased like a dozen potential responses to that list which means this is an excellent time to bounce.
― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:45 (five years ago) link
it seems like you're suggesting that ppl who identify as male are identifying with oppression and that without oppression there'd be no men but i think this is *&*problematic*&* for many ppl and despite what i think is yr good intentions in promoting it maybe deserves a rethink but ya know keep on joking/not joking you devil you ;) xp
― Mordy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:46 (five years ago) link
silby is awesome.
xpost I don't know who pom's thing was addressed to, but I am constantly surprised (not really) about the huge blind spot a lot of men have regarding women. And I say all of this shit in real life if I come across men who are at varying levels of trying to catch up. Men just really don't seem to do very well processing generalizations about them as an unchoosing group to belong to, whereas other groups, that is our daily life. This may come off as being a shitty thing to say but yeah, unless I have met you or you have some really distinguishable posting characteristic, I can't really differentiate between a lot of posters, so nothing is really aimed at specific people as to who they are. I just see a lot of floundering here sometimes that is super annoying because these ideas of maleness and masculinity have bad, violent direct impacts on women.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:47 (five years ago) link
if you're waiting for the day you can make generalizations about a group and not have individuals of that group be offended you're going to be waiting forever
― Mordy, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:48 (five years ago) link
I guess I should add that I have absolutely no problem with the behavioral points of silby's list
― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:48 (five years ago) link
silby's post has made me feel a bit:
https://consequenceofsound.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/screen-shot-2015-07-29-at-8-41-22-am.png
― Have the Rams stopped screaming yet, Lloris? (Chinaski), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:50 (five years ago) link
I have problem with talking more quietly, I'm fairly inaudible as it is.
― It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christ (Tom D.), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:52 (five years ago) link
How should I take that exactly, are you the train or the sad bald person
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:52 (five years ago) link
I think people should do that if it makes them feel more themselves. But if they are more comfortable having a beard, watching sports, and being “masculine” I think people should do that, whether they are cis or trans or whatever. I don’t critique people’s gender presentation because it’s a personal thing and a psychologically charges thing.
― Trϵϵship, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:52 (five years ago) link
mordy you were offended i told anecdotes about my spouse. I can NEVER please you.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:53 (five years ago) link
NB i was specifically addressing Simon’s question about how to practically disaffiliate oneself from manhood
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:53 (five years ago) link
xps a little of all the above.
― Have the Rams stopped screaming yet, Lloris? (Chinaski), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:53 (five years ago) link