Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

Yeah I think we need an alternative, non-gender-essentialist model for male friendship. Post-bro (jk, please never use this term). FWIW, I'm speaking from the perspective of a straight guy who is kind of uncomfortable around groups of other straight guys.

what makes you uncomfortable around groups of straight guys as opposed to groups of non-straight guys or straight non-guys?

or non-straight non-guys obv

Good question! I don't even know. It's just kind of a weird gut-level discomfort? I think it's just the residual effect of "other straight dudes" generally being the people who have treated me the worst in life, compared to other folks. Like, my guard goes up around them until they can prove they aren't out to do me harm, in a way it doesn't around other people.

Male camaraderie is not bad. We can’t afford to do without it when suicide rates and opioid addiction and hikkikomori type isolation is running rampant among the bros.

Also the word bro should be reclaimed. It shouldn’t have these connotations of fraternities and their sexism.

you could just call your male friends "brother" if you really want to, I guess

A group of straight dudes out together becomes performatively terrible. Plus what straight dudes only hang out with other straight dudes these days unless it's a bachelor party?

ilx cant rly give a fair shake to bros or masculinity

Yerac, what does performatively terrible mean?

Basically "fratty dad humor". Under what circumstance would you go out with only other straight men as a group these days?

And this is assuming most people posting are near, if not way over, 30.

What if we don't do fratty dad humour?

all genderalisations are false.

xpost Do you only hang out with straight men when you go out?

i shoud've put fratty/dad humor because it spans two different types.

Sometimes I hang out with my straight male friends? Go to a bar, catch a movie. The same things I do with my female friends and gay male friends?

What?

No, I don't only hang out with straight men when I go out, but it does happen on occasion, like when we haven't seen each other in a long time and their SOs are too busy to join us. We don't consciously get together as straight dudes to do 'straight dude' stuff. Why would you assume that?

I don't know any straight people

This is going back to (zchyrs) statement on him being uncomfortable around other groups of straight guys. I was backing this up because groups of only straight guys are pretty terrible once in a setting where they feed off of each others' bad behaviour or silently condone it.

I get what you're saying and some guys do that, yeah, but blanket statements aren't very helpful imho.

I “get” what you’re saying too but I actually find it extremely offensive.

My straight male friends aren’t worse people than my other friends. Wtf

When these are the guys that are taking up all the space, then the blanket is pretty much suffocating everything.

Yes yes #notallmen.

I don't know any straight people

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, December 11, 2018 1:08 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

goals

I have a hard time picturing a get-together for ILX straight dudes where we all go 'man, isn't it awesome that we finally have our own safe space so we can shit talk about everyone who isn't a normal, straight dude like us?'

There is already enough stigma against men forming close nonds or having authentic emotional conversations with each other, thanks to repressive ideas about masculinity. Seems like a bad trend for the left to jump on.

We are talking about gender which is a system of coercive blanket statements so yes blanket statements are hurtful but I think non-men are allowed to be a bit arch about the foibles of men roaming about in single-gender packs, which are a menace.

essentialism is good when you're being essentialist about cis-men, treeship

I mean I think the idea of gender is completely unnecessary as well.

I didn't mean to imply with my original post that I think male camaraderie is bad (most of my best friends are other men), or that bro-ing down with one's best bros is bad, either, just that hanging out in groups of all (usually straight) men gives me kind of a bad vibe.

I was talking to my spouse's colleague the other day about his annual holiday film festival that takes place over 2? days that he has been doing for over 15 years at his parents house when he goes home for xmas. And it's him and all his childhood friends. Last year was the first year they opened it up and invited women. I actually took a pause and quietly asked "you do have female friends right?"

The last time I did any sort of group "bro hang" in which all present were straight guys was a group of college friends when one of them was about to have a baby. We brought whiskey and a joint to a park, and about 1/3 of the conversation wound up being about birth plans.

I think statements like this men roaming about in single-gender packs, which are a menace. are kind of part of the problem, and just push the lonliest of men into groups like Proud Boys that actually ARE a menace? I.e. if there is no positive outlet for that sort of traditionally male energy that is now, it seems, largely seen as a negative force, it will find actual negative outlets. Or just simmer in loneliness.

some guys don't have female friends, it's true

man alive otm

also, a complicating factor is that if you are married or in a serious relationship you might tend to choose to "maintain boundaries" in opposite sex friendships (e.g. if, like me, you have a tendency to fall for female friends), which might limit some activities like going out drinking.

I'm not pushing any lonely men into joining the proud boys by being ever so slightly hyperbolic on this messageboard. Groups of cheerful young men wandering around together at night in the neighborhoods I spend time in make me anxious and worry for my safety more than, say, any given shouting person having a bad time. And I'm not even a woman.

ok, I can understand that, but might the solution be changing the way the men in those groups think rather than banning groups of men?

Who exactly is banning anything? Yerac? Me?

I don't think anyone ITT has advocated banning groups of men.

obv I'm being hyperbolic too

sorry only one person at a time is allowed to be hyperbolic and it's me

I'm not offended by what you and Yerac said, silby – there's cathartic value in those kinds of statements, especially in this context. But man alive is no less right to point out that such discourse potentially reinforces the very thing it denounces.

guys yerac has repeatedly admitted she trolls about white men its ok we can take it

but perhaps dnftt

Having real friendships with women will help in not objectifying them into throwaway vessels for potential fucking. I don't even know what "traditional male energy" is without making a rude joke.

I'm not offended by what anyone ITT has said, love you all

Having real friendships with women will help in not objectifying them into throwaway vessels for potential fucking.

Was this directed at me? I've had "real friendships with women" all my life. What I said is that I tend to fall for them, not that I tend to perceive them as "throwawa vessels for potential fucking."

xpost yeah, I have historically been "lucky" in having really great white straight male friends that the bar being constantly set so low for them is frustrating. It doesn't have to be like that.