I mean Liberal-fascist thought-policing is kind of a delusion, it would be more reasonable to say "there's a cadre of well-meaning idiots in the world" and they've always been with us
― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:23 (five years ago) link
Should be "well"-meaning but too many quotation marks
― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:24 (five years ago) link
I can’t believe you are defending these people who changed a play so it wouldn’t stigmatize Nazis.
― Trϵϵship, Friday, 7 December 2018 23:27 (five years ago) link
the chances that that was their motivation as basically zero
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:29 (five years ago) link
lol
― Trϵϵship, Friday, 7 December 2018 23:30 (five years ago) link
Perhaps it would be helpful to change it completely because I don't want to support nazis but otoh by the end of TSOM I am sort of rooting for anyone who can stop the Von Trapps continuing to sing and they are in the best position to make that happen.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:34 (five years ago) link
xp. damn it, i thought you were being earnest, that's your MO
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:36 (five years ago) link
If you hate TSoM you *are* the Nazis basically
― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Friday, 7 December 2018 23:36 (five years ago) link
This sounds a bit silly.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Saturday, 8 December 2018 01:43 (five years ago) link
This sounds fine with me. I don't really need the Nazis in The Sound of Music to have authentic period uniforms for me to know they're Nazis.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 8 December 2018 04:11 (five years ago) link
yes, plus TRIGGERS! OOOH, TRIGGGERSSSSSSSS
sensssssssitivity > history
pick a different fucking play
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 8 December 2018 06:52 (five years ago) link
I understand instead of goose-stepping, they'll be popping and locking
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 8 December 2018 06:53 (five years ago) link
*'knuck if you buck' plays* smile if you heil
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 8 December 2018 07:16 (five years ago) link
lollll
― j., Saturday, 8 December 2018 07:36 (five years ago) link
:D that's gonna be stuck in my head all day
― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 8 December 2018 09:36 (five years ago) link
this is fucking wild, and I imagine many around these parts are familiar with Clover (he wrote for Spin in the 90s, right?)
THREAD: I'm on record as saying that there are a lot of sincere and principled people working the campus politics/free speech beat, but lately I've grown much more cynical about the entire thing. I'd like to give you an example of why.
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Monday, 18 March 2019 18:16 (five years ago) link
and he did the Sugar High blog
that's nuts
― We were never Breeting Borting (President Keyes), Monday, 18 March 2019 18:31 (five years ago) link
there are lots of examples of hypocrisy re free speech but i'm not sure this is one. would anyone get away with calling for a the murder of minorities even as a joke? it's obviously a different character of offense than what normally makes the "free speech on college campus" beat rounds.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 18:33 (five years ago) link
I agree. I kinda doubt the left is going to rally around him since white guys talking about killing a bunch of people are not a popular groups nowadays
― We were never Breeting Borting (President Keyes), Monday, 18 March 2019 18:44 (five years ago) link
― Mordy, Monday, March 18, 2019 2:33 PM (thirteen minutes ago)
the police are not a protected class
I'm also not really outraged or anything, seems like the only people who care about this are republicans, let them wear themselves out and if he gets fired I'll be mad
― k3vin k., Monday, 18 March 2019 18:49 (five years ago) link
i don't see why they're being a protected class or not has to do with anything and i don't think clover should lose his job. but i don't think it's some terrible hypocrisy that the right is going after this guy for calling for police to be killed while defending right wingers for less dramatic statements. if you can show me right wing media rallying around someone calling for anyone to be killed (protected class or not) as a free speech issue then i'd agree w/ the original tweeter's conceit.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 18:54 (five years ago) link
the point of free speech is that it's supposed to not be dependent upon the content of the speech, so calling for his head for this speech while defending other speech is kind of by definition hypocritical
I think maybe we agree broadly that there is a lot of cherry-picking that goes on whenever people write these sorts of "why isn't anyone paying aTtEnTiOn to tHiS" pieces. often there are people 'talking about it' that the writer chooses not to highlight. also, not every example is interesting or worth writing about (this one prob is tho!)
sorry just talking to myself now
― k3vin k., Monday, 18 March 2019 18:59 (five years ago) link
You guys are right on the question of the will to defend Clover, but of course it's hypocrisy. Sure, swapping in "minorities" for cops makes it seem real bad, but how about: “People think that terrorists need to be reformed. They need to be killed.”
― rob, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:04 (five years ago) link
bad analogy. people talk about killing terrorists all the time
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:06 (five years ago) link
At first I read that as 'People that think terrorists need to be reformed should be killed.'
― pomenitul, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:08 (five years ago) link
xpost that is exactly my point? If a professor were fired for saying that about terrorists, right-wing "free speech" advocates would obviously be outraged. I don't see any difference in 1A terms.
― rob, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:11 (five years ago) link
"terrorists should be killed" isn't quite the same since "terrorist" is essentially synonymous with "bad guy," but if they said, "liberals should be killed," i imagine there'd be a good chance they'd be fired and a small chance republicans would try to defend it as protected speech.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:14 (five years ago) link
even tho both "cops should be killed" and "liberals should be killed" should both be protected speech and also both should be protected vis-a-vis academic freedom. but the hypocrisy charge in general is a lazy one and here seems particularly dumb to me.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:15 (five years ago) link
Mordy, my dude -- there's a conservative provocateur who literally called for gunning down journalists
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/06/28/milo-yiannopoulos-confirms-his-gunning-down-journalists-comments/743561002/
and who SPECIALIZES in showing up on college campuses and complaining that his free speech is being shut down by liberals, including a few months ago at NYU:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/students-call-nyu-cancel-milo-yiannopoulos-lecture-181030170250806.html
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:27 (five years ago) link
The professor who invited him to talk has the Twitter handle "antipcnyuprof" for the love of God
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:28 (five years ago) link
I still don't get why this doesn't count as hypocrisy, but I would def agree that hypocrisy is an ineffective line of attack
― rob, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:32 (five years ago) link
I mean here is Ann Coulter's famous quote on the Muslim world and she, too, is someone college students are widely counseled to welcome to their campuses lest they deprive themselves of the benefit of exposure to her ideas:
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:33 (five years ago) link
tbc they're gross + often hypocritical but also milo and coulter have both lost jobs bc of their comments
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:34 (five years ago) link
Free speech, in the "anti-PC get over it snowflakes" sense, has ALWAYS included "speakers have the right to advocate the killing of disfavored classes of people and if you don't like it you should argue against it in the marketplace of ideas." ALWAYS.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:36 (five years ago) link
iirc coulter lost her NR job specifically bc of the invasion comment above?
― Mordy, Monday, 18 March 2019 19:37 (five years ago) link
petitions and protests are forms of speech too I've been told
― We were never Breeting Borting (President Keyes), Monday, 18 March 2019 19:37 (five years ago) link
Clover was never properly punished for his writing as "Jane Dark" so I'm OK with this.
― grawlix (unperson), Monday, 18 March 2019 20:21 (five years ago) link
I think that many stupid people on the internet (forums and Facebook and Twitter etc) probably can be found who are all for letting murder advocates speak but would then change their tune as soon as someone advocates killing 'goodies' instead of baddies
I don't know how often that obvious hypocrisy is enacted by paid and official conservative politicians and journos though so I can see what mordy's saying
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 18 March 2019 21:19 (five years ago) link
I think a v common stumbling block is for people to advocate general freedom of speech without thinking through or acknowledging all those kinds of speech they, in fact, don't agree with
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 18 March 2019 21:22 (five years ago) link
coulter's comment mostly offends me because it's completely fucking factually wrong.
― the scientology of mountains (rushomancy), Monday, 18 March 2019 21:24 (five years ago) link
She has no interest in actual WW2 history or how that might relate to USA versus Islamists in our century
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 18 March 2019 21:59 (five years ago) link
Sometimes you see people who advocate for free speech not based on the importance of speech, but because they believe it's completely impotent.
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Monday, 18 March 2019 22:36 (five years ago) link
tangent, but the jarring thing about this for me is that the photo they're using is the Wikimedia Commons photo (i.e. why they're probably using it) of his 2015 EMP Pop Conference panel that I was also on
― theorizing your yells (katherine), Monday, 18 March 2019 22:48 (five years ago) link
right wing idiots conflate freedom of speech with freedom fromconsequences of being asswipes
― maura, Tuesday, 19 March 2019 03:15 (five years ago) link
The mayor of Old Forge, PA said on FB that Nancy Pelosi, Andrew Cuomo, and Chuck Schumer "should be shot"
https://wnep.com/2019/03/06/old-forge-mayors-facebook-post-calls-for-high-profile-democrats-to-be-shot/
He still has his job. And conservative response is "obviously this is not an actual threat" which surely is equally true of an English professor.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 03:24 (five years ago) link
but his influence over the young
― j., Tuesday, 19 March 2019 03:34 (five years ago) link
jeez. i find clover to be an insufferable (but very clever) ass (and the internet hardman comments that inspired this whole fiasco are sadly totally in character), but seeing what is happening to him is terrifying. i wouldn't wish this sort of fascist pogrom on my worst enemy.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 06:38 (five years ago) link
it doesn't help that of all the mundane fascistic details of everyday american life, i find cop-worship the most despicable.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 06:39 (five years ago) link
yeah clover is exactly the sort of dumb tankie asshole i can't imagine defending in any other context but this one.
coulter also said that the only bad thing about tim mcveigh was that he didn't blow up the NYT building. she's made some thinly veiled anti-semitic remarks too iirc. right-wingers basically never suffer any consequences for this shit.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 07:04 (five years ago) link
he has an incredible way with words. he's incredibly sharp and pointed. i actually enjoy, for a certain amount of time, reading his poetry and prose. but it all sours quickly because the common denominator -- the thing that really seems to animate his work, beyond his putative political commitments -- is self-regard.
it'd be easy to accuse him of performative radicalism, because i do think that's what a fair bit of his writing is, but it'd be too easy, because he's definitely put his own privilege on the line at times, by design and (seemingly, now) by accident.
― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 08:04 (five years ago) link