George H.W. Bush - Classic or Dud

Obama didn't have anything like this on his hands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

her tweets are bad, but who is she?

she's right that presidential virtue is pretty damn complicated. no one gets into or out of that office with clean hands. but there is such a thing as factual accuracy and that "vastly more" has no contact with reality.

Presidential virtue isn't complicated, there is none.

yep

no president can be an "american hero" - another thing that bugs me with all this pagan death cult shit

there are very few indisputable "american heroes"

Bill Wilson
MLK
Jackie Robinson

that's off the top of my head. anyone else?

Obama didn't have anything like this on his hands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

― Οὖτις, Friday, December 7, 2018 11:29 AM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bush didn't really have direct responsibility for this in any way. improved relations with iraq and exports of chemicals, weapons etc. were a policy instigated by reagan

I think there's a not-small number of heroes - abolitionists, civil rights workers (from women's rights to gay rights and all stops in between), labor organizers, etc..

Bill Wilson
MLK
Jackie Robinson

Dawn Powell

to say there is no such thing as presidential virtue is facile and incorrect. each president makes thousands of consequential decisions that affect millions, if not billions of people. some percentage of these are intentionally beneficial and not based wholly upon cynical political calculation. pretending every president is being of pure viciousness is stupid and just reinforces a false conservative narrative about progressives.

Otm

That’s bably a controversial opinion on ilx though

Probably*

Committing or actively aiding crimes against humanity tends to zero out "intentionally beneficial" acts IMO. John Wayne Gacy made a lot of kids happy when he did his clown act.

To disregard those acts, one must assume that you can't be President without doing horrible, inhuman things for indefensible reasons. If true, then we deserve to be wiped off the face of the planet.

heroism is generally portioned out in small doses, but to a surprisingly large number of people. it's nearly impossible to maintain a conspicuous heroism consistently over decades, and we should never expect it of anyone. but ascribing more than the ordinary amount of heroism to G. H. W. Bush is just the usual political posturing.

I’m not saying Bush was good I just think it’s gross to gloat at someone’s death. I thought the same thing about people cheering when Bin Laden was killed.

If true, then we deserve to be wiped off the face of the planet.

It's closer to true than most of us would like to admit, but your conclusion is just more hyperbole.

Donne was wrong.

It makes the left look like assholes when they act like this for figures who 99% of America consider to be nothing like Bin Laden.

I’m not saying Bush was good I just think it’s gross to gloat at someone’s death. I thought the same thing about people cheering when Bin Laden was killed.

― Trϵϵship, Friday, December 7, 2018 11:58 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok i was going to give you shit for your initial statement but now that you've made it clear you extend this courtesy to bin laden i find you more consistent

I think it's a positive development in the Trump era that people are much less eager to cede to media narratives about "profiles in courage" or whatever and the "gloating" is, like Simon said, more of a corrective on this sickness than simply being glad a 94-year-old man finally died

cheering when Bin Laden was killed was muted anyway because it happened a decade after 9/11 and two awful unnecessary wars. it was a dulled, cloudy, anticlimactic feeling. if he were taken out in Tora Bora I think Americans would've celebrated as they did at the death of Hitler, not that much of a stretch.

xp. my reaction is more sam jackson in a time to kill

Shakespeare was right:

Tired with all these, for restful death I cry,
As to behold desert a beggar born,
And needy nothing trimmed in jollity,
And purest faith unhappily forsworn,
And gilded honor shamefully misplaced,
And maiden virtue rudely strumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully disgraced,
And strength by limping sway disablèd,
And art made tongue-tied by authority,
And folly, doctor-like, controlling skill,
And simple truth miscalled simplicity,
And captive good attending captain ill.

  Tired with all these, from these would I be gone,
  Save that to die, I leave my love alone.

Jarvis Cocker was right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6E1JpwMj4

many xps - Alfred, why Dawn Powell?

hottake: probably at least 50% of American presidents are both war criminals AND "decent people." It's function of being at the helm of American Empire.

many xps - Alfred, why Dawn Powell?

― flappy bird,

She wrote well and was no one's fool, hence she's a hero.

fortunately i have never cared what 99% of America thinks (fuck "Family Feud")

no argument there but I think the usual definition of "American hero" excludes artists, business, and most people... it's someone that made a (largely) selfless and substantial contribution and impact on the country/world... so Bill W. is obvious, MLK as well. Jackie Robinson also an easy pick despite being paid for his work. Jonas Salk is another big one I forgot. the guy that invented air conditioning? maybe.

xp

xp we know, morbs.

the "war criminal" stuff always seems a bit glib to me. there are valid criticisms of FDR's conduct of WW2 but i still wouldn't be comfortable throwing it in the same category as W's invasion of iraq.

For me it's simple: how many Americans had their lives improved thanks to a president's leadership? Hence my not giving two shits about James Polk's comfy residence in the upper echelon.

here's a Poppy grace note I learned: James Baker snuck in a Morton's steak and a bottle of Grey Goose one time that Jefe was in the hospital.

I assume everyone who wanted to read Maureen Dowd's lengthy paean to her friendship with Bush has done so w/out a link here.

biggest yuk: GWHB referred to Dubya as "my son Quincy"

that picture of them in front of the Xmas tree is something else

Can't wait till we get back to normal. pic.twitter.com/QtdjNgKBCB

— Dennis Perrin (@DennisThePerrin) May 30, 2020