"Baby It's Cold Outside" -- Holiday Song? Rapey?

no, horror films are boring

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 1:05 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

take it to ile

VG, that explanation has been posted here a couple of times, including that same article, I think. I and jmm are interested in actual examples of the line being used that way in films of that time (or other sources). I'm not convinced that the scenes from Neptune's Daughter do show the line working in that way.

I'm not in favour of banning the song at all, tbc.

maybe everybody could just chill about policing the cultural remnants of bygone decades in cases when no one's being hurt

it would free up a lot of time

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 3:07 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otfm

I'm being deadly seriously when I say that I'd love to hear Julia Holter's take on something like, I don't know. . . 'Call Me Maybe'.

― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 21:42 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Now here's the real horror

I'm not in favour of banning the song at all, tbc.

I'm not either. I don't appreciate it as a holiday song, but whatever. I try to only listen to church crap during the month if I can manage.

When they came for "Baby, It's Cold Outside", I grimaced. When they came for "Wives and Lovers", I whimpered. When they came for "You're Sixteen", I grinned. When they came for "Seventeen", I helped them load the other Winger cds into the windowless van.

this whole thing cropping up again bugs me not because there are multiple opinions on the matter, but because of how many people have adopted the "it's sexual assault" angle not due to their own close reading, but because of the received wisdom. half the convos I've seen in the last week have boiled down to (and I apologize for bringing up Brad's least fav word)

(song plays)

"Oh, I love that song"
"Huh? don't you know it's rapey!"

and that's where the convo ends because it's treated like this thing you learned in 3rd grade. which is why I actually liked this thread lol

whats in this drink

means

its a strong drink

you are all fucking mental

is "you are all fucking mental" the part the guy sings in response

in the adele version iirc

Very prescient thread...I always liked the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version. I'm pretty close to absolute against banning any song. Close, not absolute--wherever my line is (it's not something I think about a lot, or ever), there are songs that would cross that line. This is far from that line: it requires interpretation that may or may not be valid. Frank Loesser, who wrote the song, has been dead for almost 50 years. You'd have to hook him up to a lie detector test to be sure of his intentions. You can't do that.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

Otherwise: attack, criticize, find it creepy, make it a cause, whatever you want.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

every radio station that has ever existed has banned 99.99999% of all songs ever written under this definition of banning

True enough. This song doesn't exist for 99% of stations anyway. If a jazz station were to ban the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version, or a station that plays a wide array of Christmas music were to ban all versions--and it's not really a Christmas song, although it seems to have been subsumed into that category--then you'd know. If they announced the ban, that is--even those stations could ban it without you actually knowing. Which all underscores how silly this is.

Under that definition, Ed Sheeran's "Thinking Out Loud" is not banned.

The only two bans I can think of that actually registered were when rock stations that used to play "Walk on the Wild Side" and "Money for Nothing" to death removed them from playlists. I was sick of the first anyway, and they did the world a gigantic favour by banishing the latter. No idea if they're still verboten or back.

it's funny, prior to learning anything about this song (besides this thread title) I had assumed the song was from the point of view of a man who was locked outside in the freezing cold begging to be let in to some lady's place (where he would subsequently ravish her a la the Wolf in lil Red Riding Hood)

”Oh, I love that song"

Do some people think cucumbers taste better pickled?

Everyone thinks that!

Here's a version by Frank Loesser and Lynn though (direct mp3 link)

Cool, thx! Neat to hear

The languorous quality of that performance definitely cuts against the “Ricardo Maltalbán as manic horndog” staging in Neptune’s Daughter.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

every radio station that has ever existed has banned 99.99999% of all songs ever written under this definition of banning

― sans lep (sic), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 6:01 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

True enough. This song doesn't exist for 99% of stations anyway. If a jazz station were to ban the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version, or a station that plays a wide array of Christmas music were to ban all versions--and it's not really a Christmas song, although it seems to have been subsumed into that category--then you'd know. If they announced the ban, that is--even those stations could ban it without you actually knowing. Which all underscores how silly this is.

― clemenza, Wednesday, December 5, 2018 6:06 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I assume that CBC had it in their playlists if they are making an announcement about pulling it. And I do think a national public broadcaster should be held to a different standard when it comes to this sort of decision than a local private business: it exists to serve some sort of public interest and it is appropriate to evaluate its decisions in those terms. I will freely admit, though, that I have no real idea how Radio 2 playlists are decided in the first place, although they seem to get a lot of listeners in Ottawa at least.

http://bigbutterandeggman.tumblr.com/post/154013148291/teachingwithcoffee-its-time-to-bring-an-end-to

Still the best response to this fiasco.

Again, though, some examples to support the historical claim would help. If the drink as a means of plausible deniability was such a common trope at the time, then it should be easy to settle the controversy.

I'd also like to see examples, out of historical interest -- but considering that the only alternative reading of those lines ("Say, what's in this drink? / I seem to be in some crazy spell / I ought to say no, no, no, sir / At least I'm gonna say that I tried") would be that he literally spiked her drink (while pouring it in front of her), I think it's fairly safe to accept the "performative show of plausible deniability" interpretation... at least following the "Occam's razor school" of holiday-song lyric interpretation.

Also, keep in mind that the song plays out for another full verse, which mirrors the first -- only this time, it's "maybe just a cigarette more..." (instead of a drink). She clearly didn't pass out from a roofie, and the drink didn't seem to put her into much of a stupor.

All this said, I agree with with Zelda's point above that the interplay of desire and consent in the song, and its arguable "trivialization" of / finding humor in the notion of consent, may not fit well with modern sensibilities ("it's nonetheless an example of that old highly gender-specific trope, whereby man tries to persuade woman to do something she has doubts about, for whatever reasons."). I like the song, anyway!

The song was written to get people leave. Mission accomplished, from my corner.

Doubt this song was on CBC R2 playlist to begin with, since it's not a mid-tempo semi-acoustic rocker.

considering that the only alternative reading of those lines ("Say, what's in this drink? / I seem to be in some crazy spell / I ought to say no, no, no, sir / At least I'm gonna say that I tried") would be that he literally spiked her drink

the reading is "woo this liquor is stronger than I thought, teehee" not "YOU HAVE GIVEN ME CHLORAL HYDRATE YOU MONSTER"

The point is it doesn't need a dubious claim of being some 1940s movie meme because it literally fucking means something that people would still jocularly say tofuckingday

This song is actually feminist and I have a thinkpiece that proves it.

Editors, DM me to negotiate a fee

xp Yeah, that's basically my point... the lines seem fairly easy to "read" on their face.

(Though I think you could dice it where she's pretending to blame the drink not just for being strong, but for being "spiked"... but of course it's just a pretense, she's making a show.)

Doubt this song was on CBC R2 playlist to begin with, since it's not a mid-tempo semi-acoustic rocker.

Ha. A couple of weeks ago, they were doing a 'deep dive' into the entire Goodbye Yellow Brick Road album and it finally registered that they're just trolling at this point.

I just heard the Pentatonix version of "Hallelujah" on the radio for the first time this year, and if this is what it is meant to fill the contemporary void left by "problematic" chestnuts like "Baby It's Cold Outside," then I know what side of the issue I strongly reside on now.

A couple years ago I heard a Pentatonix version of "White Winter Hymnal" by Fleet Foxes on holiday Muzak at Denny's and what world is this?

Ugh

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/entertainment-news/its-not-a-date-rape-song-baby-its-cold-outside-composers-daughter-speaks-out/63-622183448

Today a friend posted about this and a local playwright who is well-respected (and her husband) barged in to say how rapey it actually is and lambasting how all the people in the thread defending it were male (despite several women, including a local well-knowm actress who is a vocal feminist defending the song above her). And used the usual "what's this in my drink" angle to attack it.

What really set me off is how one of the respondents, who admittedly argued his point poorly, opened up about how he was a sexual assault victim and the response from the husband was basically "I'm sorry you experienced that, but am curious then why you'd want to listen to this song having experienced that".

I lost my shit at the audacity of someone to be so sure that their reading was the only acceptable one that they'd chide an assault victim for tolerating the song. So I pointed out I was sexually assaulted under the exact circumstances that she was accusing the male character of - a man twice my age who picked up on my naive trust and emotional instability, offered me heavy amounts of liquor with the sole purpose of getting me drunk enough to pass out, then unzipped my pants while I was asleep, crawled into bed with me, and did as he wished. And how I still didn't break off our friendship for another two years due to fear, even letting him come to my grandma's funeral and hug my grieving mother and never telling her what he did to me.

I'm not an appeal to authority person and don't presume to suggest this gives me cart blanche to speak for victims but it infuriates me how this debate is going from blog fodder to people suggesting assault victims who don't agree with their reading of the song are audacious because they should "know better". Still fucking angry

✊ to Neanderthal

✊

✊🏻

As a different sort of “appeal to authority”: what do the detractors think of every woman artist who has ever recorded this song; even just those in the “modern era,” from Bette Midler to Dolly Parton to Lady Gaga to Norah Jones to Idina Menzel to Fantasia to Zooey Deschanel (twice)... not to mention all the male artists? Are all these singers taken to be either deluded as to the song’s “true meaning”; or aware of it, and callously willing to perform a vile duet for the $$?

The spiked/not spiked interpretation should be a litmus test... for what I don’t know.

There is no way that drink was spiked. Whether it’s good to treat the practice of plying hesitant women with alcohol as a joke is a separate question.

I do think she is supposed to be “playing along” but you know the trope is not great.

If it's to be interpreted about a woman's sense of self-shame and how society casts morality values on sexual liberation then its still a pretty joyless listen and I dont understand why anyone would want to buy into that

For sure

Why is the listener “buying into” anything, necessarily?

I find most holiday songs to be fairly “joyless listens”; this one at least has a friction that makes it interesting.