I have explained myself enough. It chooses its subject matter. It situates the woman in the house with her dreary life. And then her epiphany is, yay, look at her running around the house with her curlers on. It seems to me that nothing could really be clearer.
― timellison, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:13 (five years ago) link
but what makes that a mocking portrait as opposed to a realistic one? Part of the problem here is that Davies is a great enough songwriter that he doesn't clumsily spell out any particular POV, he just presents the details and observes, but you seem to conclude that the very observations themselves are mocking, that talking about the prosaic life of a 60s UK housewife is somehow inherently disdainful.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:16 (five years ago) link
and taken in the context of his larger oeuvre, with its conservative leanings and pinings for tradition, it seems weird to assume that Ray's sympathies lie with the "wayward lass" as opposed to the hapless housewife, oppressed by her stultifying gender role. what conclusion in the song would have been non-mocking, in your opinion? that she run away from home, abandon her family, and become a hare krishna?
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:18 (five years ago) link
it seems weird to assume that Ray's sympathies lie with the "wayward lass" as opposed to the hapless housewife
I agree that it would seem weird and I was not doing that.
― timellison, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:21 (five years ago) link
I don't find the "so she ran round the house with her curlers on" inherently mocking, in the context of the song its an observation of her being liberated from feelings of jealousy and self-consciousness - she's not giving a fuck and that feels good to her
This is how I hear it, too (fwiw)
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:22 (five years ago) link
"Jukebox Music" has always been more insulting to me as a woman who loves music. The "little lady" who takes the lyrics all the songs she loves literally gets the real condescending treatment in that one. And it still doesn't really anger me, just makes me think that Ray is definitely a man of his times.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:23 (five years ago) link
ray is absolutely not mocking the protagonist for wearing curlers or reading women's weekly magazines! any more than he was mocking the idea of a village green preservation society. seriously, no songwriter of that era would be less likely to mock somebody for living a quiet and unadventurous life than ray davies.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:25 (five years ago) link
what conclusion in the song would have been non-mocking, in your opinion?
The conclusion is fine. The children are what brings her back; that's actually nice. It's the portrayal I see as demeaning and somewhat sarcastic. Davies saw himself as a social critic.
― timellison, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:26 (five years ago) link
ray is absolutely not...
"Absolutely not" - the final word, then?
― timellison, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:28 (five years ago) link
and here i thought you had the final word with "i have explained myself enough."
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:33 (five years ago) link
Love you guys anyway
― timellison, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:38 (five years ago) link
Also not a fan of "clutch empty milk bottles to their hearts" btw
I have a controversial music question...
I haven't listened, and I'm not qualified to really judge either way, but would Lil Peep be rated as highly right now if he hadn't died?
― Evan, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:45 (five years ago) link
i thought he was super important before he died so... it wouldn't be the same but yeah
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:48 (five years ago) link
OK thanks. I really had no idea!
― Evan, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:51 (five years ago) link
yeah if anything he hasn't gotten the due he deserves in death, he died too young for a true martyr bump
― flappy bird, Monday, 10 December 2018 18:12 (five years ago) link
all the lil rappers are bad
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 18:51 (five years ago) link
(taking this back to real controversial content)
who was the first lil rapper anyway, lil bow wow?
kim!?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 10 December 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link
Lil Kim that is
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 10 December 2018 18:53 (five years ago) link
idk Lil Bow Wow is '93 or so, isn't that before her?
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 18:54 (five years ago) link
wiki says his first album was 2000 and he was 13unless he recorded before that?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 10 December 2018 18:55 (five years ago) link
Besides, he shed the 'lil' a couple of years later.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 18:56 (five years ago) link
lil kim released hard core in 1996, when bow wow was...9so i think she was first of the two but maybe there was another lil before kim that i am forgetting/not aware of
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 10 December 2018 18:58 (five years ago) link
There was also Lil' Keke. But I agree with LL, I think Lil Kim was the first.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 18:59 (five years ago) link
Lil' Rodney Cee from the Funky 4 + 1
― Number None, Monday, 10 December 2018 19:09 (five years ago) link
Hmm maybe Bow Wow Wow was the reason for confusion! Ha
― Evan, Monday, 10 December 2018 19:10 (five years ago) link
i knew there would be one before her i just am not familiar with who that isthank you ilm
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 10 December 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link
from lil bow wow's wiki
In 1993, he performed at a concert in Los Angeles, and was noticed by rapper Snoop Dogg, who subsequently gave him a stage name, "Lil' Bow Wow".[4]
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Monday, 10 December 2018 19:13 (five years ago) link
The best album Mick Jones made was B.A.D’s ‘Megatop Phoenix’.
― Dan Worsley, Monday, 10 December 2018 19:22 (five years ago) link
oh shit that's right! good lookin out
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:02 (five years ago) link
hs is great so may have to retract my controversial music opinion
TS: Big Rappers vs. Lil Rappers
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:03 (five years ago) link
Soft Machine wasn't truly great until Robert Wyatt left the band
Gong wasn't truly great until Daevid Allen left the band
(I am OK with the idea that these are a coincidences, as I enjoy both Wyatt and Allen quite a bit. But I much prefer the albums without them)
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:14 (five years ago) link
There is something pitiable and maybe even tragic about people in their forties and fifties who are still obsessed with the Misfits and the Ramones
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:17 (five years ago) link
or shellac and autechre
― massaman gai (front tea for two), Monday, 10 December 2018 20:19 (five years ago) link
Eh, people are attracted to different things. People could conceivably like the music even if the lyrics don't have significance for them in their forties and fifties.
― timellison, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:25 (five years ago) link
I consider everyone on ilx pitiable and tragic
― ogmor, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:29 (five years ago) link
is that really a musical opinion
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:31 (five years ago) link
or a controversial one?
― big crime for a SPECIAL WHATEVER (voodoo chili), Monday, 10 December 2018 20:35 (five years ago) link
that too
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:36 (five years ago) link
it's top 3 for sure
― sans lep (sic), Monday, 10 December 2018 20:38 (five years ago) link
nothing per se bad abt being pitiable and/or tragic
― massaman gai (front tea for two), Monday, 10 December 2018 20:40 (five years ago) link
or vain, erudite and stupid
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 10 December 2018 21:06 (five years ago) link
I always wondered about that title. Does each word describe a specific band member? Bruce is definitely "erudite"
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 10 December 2018 21:10 (five years ago) link
similar question (as long as I'm derailing): was "experimental, jet set, trash and no star" meant to describe the individual members of Sonic Youth? If so, I'd guess Lee, Kim, Thurston, Steve, respectively
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 10 December 2018 21:11 (five years ago) link
p sure Thurston confirmed that explicitly in an interview (at least, that's my memory)
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 December 2018 21:16 (five years ago) link
can't tell if you guys are joking but there's no comma after "experimental" and experimental jet set is a play on words
― Josefa, Monday, 10 December 2018 21:32 (five years ago) link
idgi
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 11 December 2018 14:04 (five years ago) link
"Not surprisingly, the title had no single explanation. It was either a play on their alter egos - Ranaldo, Gordon, Moore, and Shelly, respectively - or, as Moore told writer Alec Foege, it was inspired by the time Yoshimi P-We, the drummer of... the Boredoms, was in the company of Moore and Gordon and was approached by autograph-seeking kids. "No - no star!" she said, in broken English."
- David Browne, Goodbye 20th Century: A Biography of Sonic Youth, pp. 267-268
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 December 2018 15:27 (five years ago) link