“But, the phenomenon of animal crackers remains problematic and part of a wider culture of speciesism.”

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xpost Ha, I just reread that Peanuts collection so I was thinking the same when this thread popped up.

all lite up and very romatic (Old Lunch), Monday, 3 December 2018 23:03 (nine months ago) link

Have to say, the separation of food into permitted and not permitted that is inherent to veganism sort of betrays its deep roots in religious tradition. That and the wanting to live without cruelty, which to me seems like a transcendent desire, one that an actual human can never fulfill in this life.

Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 00:33 (nine months ago) link

yeah its often, not always obv, of a piece with a "first do no harm" outlook that ...well ime only pretty well-off ppl or those getting by nicely without jobs can practically manage

puppy bash (darraghmac), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 00:36 (nine months ago) link

On that note. Once upon a time, in the depths of unemployment, I found a purse left on a bus with fifty quid and a phone in it, because yes I did open it. Then I handed it in to the bus driver. Did not take the fifty or the phone. Was left with a lingering sense of shame at having looked in the purse to see if there was anything worth having. You are not supposed to look at other people's stuff and think about nicking it, whatever the context.

I have never quite been able to feel the same genuine, hammering shame over eating food made out of animals. Can certainly see the economic argument about the impact of e.g. cow farming on the environment; but in those cases where veganism says you should feel shame over eating a cheese sandwich ... that's where I start to get suspicious.

On the other hand, people in below the line comments often try to shame vegans for having principles, or for trying to engage with environmental problems, as if these are the worst of follies ... which also incurs my suspicions.

Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 00:56 (nine months ago) link

snoopy never struck me as jainist

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:06 (nine months ago) link

though he did suffer at the hands of a cat, and hanged out with birds a lot

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:06 (nine months ago) link

some ape ex-predators sometimes forget we ourselves were reduced to walking convenience snacks for hundreds of millions of years, it's deep history reparation time and I'm all out of that insipid winter rabbit feed that fucking doesn't taste like bacon.

calzino, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:09 (nine months ago) link

joeks of course.

calzino, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:10 (nine months ago) link

but not wrong neither

puppy bash (darraghmac), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:20 (nine months ago) link

That and the wanting to live without cruelty, which to me seems like a transcendent desire, one that an actual human can never fulfill in this life.

"telling the truth" and "not being thick" are transcendent desires in this sense. there is a sort of conceited narcissism to ideals and vows but they're useful.

seem to have lost sight of the fact that most people not eating meat will never be as well-off as anyone on ilx, and for lots of ppl a plant-based diet is a necessity rather than a conceit. by 'lots of ppl' I mean humanity as a whole, yeah

ogmor, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:45 (nine months ago) link

The environmental problems that are caused by a human diet that includes animal products shares the same root cause as all other environmental problems, including, but not limited to pollution, extinction, and climate change: it's overpopulation and the accompanying appropriation of natural resources by an ever-growing number of humans. Veganism is at best a second or third order solution that may ameliorate, but cannot solve the problem. That requires a more radical approach.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 01:48 (nine months ago) link

why improve when you can die? all hail the first order.

ogmor, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 02:09 (nine months ago) link

I'm planning on dying.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 02:17 (nine months ago) link

"telling the truth" and "not being thick" are transcendent desires in this sense. there is a sort of conceited narcissism to ideals and vows but they're useful.

Although it's possible to retain an awareness of one's self as a thick liar, whilst attempting to be intelligent and tell the truth; indeed retaining that awareness is arguably crucial to any truth seeking project. I agree with you about the usefulness of ideals, but their usefulness (or even just their inevitability?) doesn't always let them off the hook.

seem to have lost sight of the fact that most people not eating meat will never be as well-off as anyone on ilx, and for lots of ppl a plant-based diet is a necessity rather than a conceit. by 'lots of ppl' I mean humanity as a whole, yeah

Like arranged marriages, high rates of child mortality, and trepanning with rocks? Obviously those are all more or less malignant, whereas a plant based diet can be benign, controversial missing vitamins aside, but they are still necessities at certain levels of poverty and I wonder how much moral glamour necessity has when seen in full.

Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 14:20 (nine months ago) link

what hook?

there is no q of glamour, i was just pointing out that not eating meat is not an abnormal phenomenon that requires special consideration

ogmor, Tuesday, 4 December 2018 14:39 (nine months ago) link

might want to change "forced" for "arranged" there cardamon

biliares now living will never buey (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 14:45 (nine months ago) link

Words matter, and as our understanding of social justice evolves, our language evolves along with it. Here’s how to remove speciesism from your daily conversations. pic.twitter.com/o67EbBA7H4

— PETA (@peta) December 4, 2018

j., Wednesday, 5 December 2018 02:22 (nine months ago) link

haha, perfect

jmm, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 02:36 (nine months ago) link

Speciesism is such an absurd concept. Purest sophistry.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 02:56 (nine months ago) link

Like. You don’t even need “speciesism” as a concept to decide it’s immoral to eat animals! It’s a superfluous concept Peter effin Singer invented so he could trick a few more undergrads into thinking they are racist for eating hot dogs.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 02:58 (nine months ago) link

Basically I find any suggestion that nonhuman animals are interchangeable with humans as moral subjects to be offensive and also wrong.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 02:59 (nine months ago) link

so do i but possibly for a different reason, that our framework of moral subjectivity is a form of cruelty we should only inflict on ourselves

macropuente (map), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:06 (nine months ago) link

i don't really think that just saying stuff.

also i really admire my vegan roommate, he never says anything about anyone else's diet.

macropuente (map), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:10 (nine months ago) link

Yeah most vegans don’t bc most vegans like most people aren’t intrusive and judgmental

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:23 (nine months ago) link

i tend toward both those qualities so i'm sure i'd be an insufferable vegan.

i should start evangelizing about the moral imperative of vasectomies irl

macropuente (map), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:34 (nine months ago) link

It's weird to actively judge people based on what they decide is the kind of food they prefer to eat. (Well, maybe apart from cannibalism, but that's a very delicate subject.) This weirdness applies equally to judging vegans harshly simply for being vegans and to vegans judging omnivores harshly simply for being omnivores.

A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:37 (nine months ago) link

Go with God

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:37 (nine months ago) link

Well, maybe apart from cannibalism, but that's a very delicate subject.

and a very delicate prep job

HAHA

macropuente (map), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:41 (nine months ago) link

the best thing about being vegan is i feel no guilt about calling my dogs shitheads to their face bc hey at least im not eating them

21st savagery fox (m bison), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:42 (nine months ago) link

now before you precious dog lovers get up in arms about that, just remember that my dogs are shitheads

21st savagery fox (m bison), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:43 (nine months ago) link

cats rule dogs drool

macropuente (map), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:51 (nine months ago) link

cats are also bad

21st savagery fox (m bison), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 03:56 (nine months ago) link

It's weird to actively judge people based on what they decide is the kind of food they prefer to eat.

Unless they crack open a plastic container of something vile-smelling on public transportation. Then you can judge away.

grawlix (unperson), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 14:58 (nine months ago) link

i have a conservative friend who voted for evan mcmullin last election not trump but often we debate trump and the GOP because he argues that trump is neither explicitly, not obviously implicitly, racist and that the left uses idpol to discredit right-wing arguments without examining them on the merits etc aka a guy ilx would really enjoy. He's very bright so it's enjoyable to argue with him. Also, he believes that almost all moral issues are debatable but the one he thinks has the least credibility is the idea that humans can eat animals. He a staunch (tho not generally evangelizing) vegan, no leather, no eggs, etc. Last night we were chatting (bc I sent him that PETA tweet), and I argued that human capacity for morality or philosophy suggested that we're qualitatively different from the animals that we eat. He asked me if that means we can eat very young children. I argued that very young children have the potential to develop into humans who can think morally, but then he argued that fetuses can do the same and I'm pro choice. Anyway the conversation branched from there but I just wanted to introduce you all to my deep thinking hardcore vegan moderate Republican friend. He used to be a progressive when he was younger (he's in his late 40s now), and he says he once went to a liberal campus meeting where they were talking about the issues of the day (apartheid, civil rights, etc) and he raised animal rights and they blew him off and he feels like that's bc it was the one time they were forced to contend with their own oppressiveness. Anyway, I love eating meat it tastes great and the Bible says I can do it so I'm not worrying about it to much from a moral perspective, tho from a climate perspective as mentioned upthread animal farming does concern me. And it seems to be awfully cruel - we should be able to farm animals and not treat them like victims in a Saw flick.

Mordy, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:13 (nine months ago) link

nor* obviously

Mordy, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:14 (nine months ago) link

It's kind of miraculous that human beings are ever able to hold two or more ideas that don't inherently contradict one another. I mean, it doesn't happen often, but it's really something to behold when it does.

Mom's out working, for fulfillment (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:28 (nine months ago) link

reading yr posts i am often struck with amazement that you can hold even one idea

Mordy, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:31 (nine months ago) link

the argument for human exceptionalism is normally based on consciousness rather than any particular intellectual tradition bc they're not v old old and most ppl before and since know little to nothing about them. modern western society has weird hangups and ideas around age, childhood & adulthood but what mordy's friend says abt kids seems obviously true. the sort of humanity ppl think of as being exceptional is transient, mutable and dynamic, ppl achieve and express it in different degrees, inconsistently and sometimes not really at all.

saying that it's only bad for humans to eat animals seems like another form of exceptionalism unless you condemn all carnivores and long for some pre-cambrian, prelapsarian idyll.

ogmor, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:34 (nine months ago) link

-old, ho hum, you get the idea

ogmor, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:35 (nine months ago) link

I'll confirm after I've returned from the hospital but I'm pretty sure that was a third-degree burn u just inflicted on me Mordy.

Mom's out working, for fulfillment (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 15:35 (nine months ago) link

what I want to know is whether we're still allowed to wax the dolphin any more

Neil S, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:01 (nine months ago) link

he says he once went to a liberal campus meeting where they were talking about the issues of the day (apartheid, civil rights, etc) and he raised animal rights and they blew him off and he feels like that's bc it was the one time they were forced to contend with their own oppressiveness

This is hilarious.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:43 (nine months ago) link

did they even discriminate between animals of difft color/gender or was it all one big "not all hoomanz" handwave

puppy bash (darraghmac), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:47 (nine months ago) link

intersectional veganism or bust

Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:49 (nine months ago) link

this is actually a really good book if you want to read about veganism and feminism:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sexual-Politics-Meat-Feminist-Vegetarian-Revelations/dp/1501312839/

my name is leee john, for we are many (NickB), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:58 (nine months ago) link

Mordy: Daniel 1:12-15. You'd be "handsomer and fatter" eating only pulses (food grown from seed).

Sanpaku, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:23 (nine months ago) link

Pretty sure that’s about eating kosher food only not about eating vegetarian only

Mordy, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:29 (nine months ago) link

Sounds good if you want to be fat but fine.

Monica Kindle (Tom D.), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:30 (nine months ago) link

lots of very left-wing people are very averse to veganism and get upset about it. my favourite one i ever got - and i never, ever proselytized when i was vegan - (obviously from a fucking white person) was some concern about it being a colonialist mindset because first nations peoples' traditional ways of life include hunting and fishing, using the whole animal etc. and the very obvious rejoinder was "you're white lol and I'm not telling indigenous people to stop their very responsible stewardship of their traditional lands i just think you, white person, should maybe consume less animal products"

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:33 (nine months ago) link

Jim's rejoinder OTM. I have been a strict vegetarian for about a year and a half, now, for primarily ethical reasons, but the framework of "animal rights" is pretty suspect to me. As it's already been noted, it's not like animals (or humans) have had a guarantee of rights for the vast bulk of history. The only coherent justification is that animals can suffer, and needless suffering is bad, so maybe we should cool it with anything that increases animal suffering, so far as we can. I do think it's possible to farm animals for livestock without unnecessary suffering, but I doubt it's possible to do at the current scale of factory farming.

days of being riled (zchyrs), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:03 (nine months ago) link


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