worst reason to go ahead with brexit

ive never been able to parse legitimate concerns from yknow 'legitimate concerns' but i wasnt built for modern life tbf

I come from a country wrecked by would-be communist ideology, a country that has almost always benefitted from modelling itself after the West. It is currently ruled by the same cartoonishly incompetent party in all but name and by the Orthodox Church, which is an extension of Russian colonialism in all but name. It is a complete and utter disaster that serves to further cement an age-old culture of petty theft and corruption so forgive me for not seeing the EU as the chief culprit here. That being said, you're obviously entitled to your British perspective (and I don't meant this sarcastically).

(Forgive the redundancies.)

I don’t think the argument is that it’ll ‘stain Britain’s pure democracy’ as much as Britain’s democracy is old and creaky and it might not survive a broken hip.

xxp chief culprit wrt what?

The current state of Europe as whole.

The current state of Europe as whole.

That's so vague as to be meaningless, no?

I don't think the EU is the main culprit in the rise of far-right nationalism in Europe. I do think it's the main culprit for a disastrous austerity policy that has some pretty huge damage to much of Southern Europe. I mean, by definition!

I don't know about Greece and Italy, but much of the EU money we receive in Romania gets embezzled by ex-'communist' businessmen who have successfully curbed the judiciary struggle against corruption by painting the National Anticorruption Directorate as Soros/EU tools. Hungary and Poland are worse still, as far as I can tell. Is the EU to blame?

Putting pressure on governments to cut government spending is not a sensible way to fight corruption.

my argument is that the nature of the relationship between the EU & britain
is uncertain, in flux and seemingly chaotic not just bc of current British incoherence and incompetence but also and more fundamentally bc the EU is provisional and unsustainable and constantly evolving in obscure and undemocratic ways.

this uncertainty around the EU makes it's increasingly aggressive economic programme alarming but it also makes it the only real vessel of hope I can see for britain politically, and the best chance at making lasting fundamental changes to what is probably the longest enduring extant political system itw and perhaps even ending its domination by what must be the most successful political party of all time. you don't need to be optimistic abt the EU to think it's preferable to westminster.

you don't need to be optimistic abt the EU to think it's preferable to westminster

does not apply if you support "the most successful political party of all time" of course, the reasons for which are surely part of the issue and hence part of the headwind non-supporters currently face

wow this turned int

Damn phone. Meant to offer condolences to darragh on this thread turning into an actual conversation

i have a rep for aha peevishness but rly im v easygoing

mentions of 32 counties, none, obv

Only playing :)

This whole topic is more civil when we let each other think half baked feelings out loud instead of demanding some kind of lol orthodox realism

yeah

its a v interesting behemoth when removed from actual daily politics

See pomenitul is off on his Zizek routine again.

Don't worry, the Maoist militias will soon emerge from the maquis and all shall be well again.

otmor

If it was a side issue then the people most invested in making things worse wouldn't be so single-minded in their pursuit of Brexit.

The '08 crash was an opportunity for Osborne and his class to enact austerity and I see Brexit as a continuation of that.

It doesn't change the overall picture where people need to own all of the wealth they create. Being in the EU or out of it is neither here nor there.

HUNGARY: we elected a fascist despot

ITALY: yeah we elected some of those too

THE EU: Hmm. This is a major challenge. Perhaps we need a new consensus on migration. We b--

ITALY: we have a budget deficit of 3%

THE EU: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU. YOU ARE RISKING THE WHOLE EUROPEAN PR

— ▀▀▀▀▀▀ (@immolations) November 21, 2018

It doesn't change the overall picture where people need to own all of the wealth they create. Being in the EU or out of it is neither here nor there.

By that logic the overall picture hasn't really changed in 40 years (or 100 years lol). I think that might be a little too much perspective for people who have experienced an obvious negative material change in their lives over that time, not to mention the people who are about to experience another one.

Or more than 100 years, since modern capitalism really.

The material change is experienced whether we are in or out of the EU. Yes if its a no deal its a disaster but that's the set-up of the system. No deal today, or something else tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

essentially narrator otm

35 votes prob also wins a reref iirc

Well it's done now

the spread of votes here suggests that an actual resolutin may be diff*executed*

like tbh i was happy enough with those options at the time and tk knows i dont as a rule like to overestimate any electorate nor system of representatives but fuck me even i never considered "bored of discussing it now" as the winning ticket

as usual, time has revealed me to be just another naif cloaked in protective crank casing eh

it'd be a shame to have spent two years talking about brexit and then not brexit, right

― rob, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 01:17 (eleven months ago) bookmarkflaglink

this guy otoh, this guy knows whats up

German "punk" bands being denied entry to the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/13/german-band-may-have-been-refused-uk-entry-because-they-have-day-jobs