All I'm sayin' is, I recently read thru huge chunks of prime Levitz/Giffen "Legion" in collected form (I love that shit) -- but I couldn't tell ya "Imra" from "Ayla" from "Shady" from "PG."
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Monday, 19 November 2018 23:53 (five years ago) link
I didn't mean to imply that X-Men was a ripoff of LSH, I was referring to this very blatant ripoff of LSH: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_(comics) (which yes is just a minor blip in the X-Men mythos but it still is not a good idea)
altho I probably do prefer LSH to X-Men just because the ideas are still goofy but it's all (mostly) done in a spirit of "fun" scifi with few attempts at realism, emotional or otherwise. It's mostly a dumb space opera and it knows it.
― Οὖτις, Monday, 19 November 2018 23:56 (five years ago) link
thread made me think of Bill Messner-Loebs, whose work -especially in Journey - really blew me away, and a little reading suggested he's having a pretty hard time of it.http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/one-armed-comic-book-artist-worked-on-wonder-woman-now-homeless-in-michiganhttps://www.gofundme.com/billmessnerloebshttps://www.tcj.com/baron-and-messner-loebs-flash/2/
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 19 November 2018 23:57 (five years ago) link
oof jesus wtf
― Οὖτις, Monday, 19 November 2018 23:58 (five years ago) link
a pair of L&R cameo homages from WML's run on flash courtesy Fiffehttp://66.media.tumblr.com/f7e5e7f63e40be23e3a6e840f102c4e8/tumblr_meo0wsVovT1rqostyo1_500.jpghttp://66.media.tumblr.com/5f8400c519ce664492729d17ee864213/tumblr_meo1equC8F1rqostyo1_640.jpg
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 00:11 (five years ago) link
much better than Levitz/Giffen did at their peak
Giffen's a unique proposition as a writer - nearly everything he's written solo is actively bad, but whenever he's written with someone else, he's raised their quality far higher than they could ever achieve on their own. (Even when he's so aggressive a collaborator that he'd, for example, give Levitz pages where someone dead for decades turned up alive in the last panel. And Levitz wouldn't pull rank as publisher OR writer and ask for changes!)
― Bing The Mighty Seat (sic), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 00:20 (five years ago) link
Yeah, those two were really on fire... one of those volumes (I think "The Great Darkness"?) has an appendix illustrating how by the final issues, they were working with the barest of script outlines for those huge, complex stories, and had developed a sort of innate understanding of what each other wanted.
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 00:42 (five years ago) link
give Levitz pages where someone dead for decades turned up alive in the last panel.
Did he steal this from Kirby or Munoz?
― Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 09:01 (five years ago) link
Peter Milligan, despite some huge inconsistency, is a genuinely good writer IMO. I read a Batman story by him a few years ago, and it's one of the few instances where I immediately thought "I have GOT to read more by this guy!" I prefer 80s and 90s Milligan to most of his (more famous) peers.
Giffen's a unique proposition as a writer - nearly everything he's written solo is actively bad
I loved The Heckler!
― Duane Barry, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:06 (five years ago) link
Yeah, I thought of Milligan but, as you mention, he's all over the goddamn. place. His highs are quite high, though.
― My mother set great store by that microwave oven! (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 11:14 (five years ago) link
Writing good comics does not prevent one from writing bad ones. There are no only good comic writers.
― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 13:23 (five years ago) link
I guess the question could be phrased as 'which comics writers have demonstrated that they are capable of genuinely good work?' Because, yeah, I struggle even thinking of an acclaimed novelist with an unblemished track record.
― 'Rock Me (I'm a Dais)' (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 13:26 (five years ago) link
ha ha, Ward you love jazz, right? how can you stay mad at someone for forty years for playing sax for a while because they liked Art Pepper, and then playing some quotes from Miles on a few gigs in 1985?
"Giffen's a unique proposition as a writer - nearly everything he's written solo is actively bad"
The Heckler was written with the Bierbaums. (Trencher was solo, if you're thinking of that?)
― Bing The Mighty Seat (sic), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:40 (five years ago) link
i feel like there's someone brilliant from the eclipse/first comics boom era that I'm forgetting
― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:49 (five years ago) link
i mean loebs from that batch, definitely
20 years ago dave sim would be a popular answer itt
― sign up for my waterless urinals webinar (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
I almost posted Sim earlier but yeah it's... complicated
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:55 (five years ago) link
speaking of other writers I think are p great but whose politics are mostly loathsome, there's Mike Baron
it's... complicated
boy is it ever
― sign up for my waterless urinals webinar (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:56 (five years ago) link
Anthea Bell?
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
no mention of gaiman as yet, heart u ilx
― sign up for my waterless urinals webinar (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:18 (five years ago) link
I do like Gaiman. But no.
― 'Rock Me (I'm a Dais)' (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:19 (five years ago) link
I would say, though, that as a writer he's a genuinely good reader.
― 'Rock Me (I'm a Dais)' (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:20 (five years ago) link
I bow to nobody in my appreciation of Anthea Bell but she never wrote a comic afaik
― Bing The Mighty Seat (sic), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:27 (five years ago) link
lol sick burn
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 19:45 (five years ago) link
Oh, I'd forgotten that. I did try to read the original Ambush Bug mini not long ago, and couldn't get into it. I had just read through `Mazing Man and Angel Love, so maybe I'd had my fill of 80s DC curios by that point.
― Duane Barry, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 23:58 (five years ago) link
on the creator/artist front, i will say that jaime and huizenga come to mind immediately
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 01:19 (five years ago) link
Lewis Trondheim
― EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 01:50 (five years ago) link
Sfar too. All the l'association guys really
― i believe that (s)he is sincere (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 03:56 (five years ago) link
some of the english dialogue in asterix is so far from the french original, so created-from-whole-cloth, i want to say the books should almost be credited to uderzo-goscinny-bell-hockridge
just because there's no lee-ditko-kirby fight for authorship or bad treatment, it doesn't mean she shouldn't get equal credit
i might be remembering wrong, but i think goscinny claimed some of the asterix books were better in english (eco said the same thing about name of the rose)
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 12:57 (five years ago) link
Plots/Structures/Characters/Settings etc in Asterix all come from Goscinny/Uderzo. Bell should - at best - be credited w/ 'additional dialogue' imho (and that's not to denigrate her contribution, they're great translations, but a writer she is not). Herge said similarly complimentary things about the English language versions of the Tintin albums (translated by Leslie Lonsdale-Cooper and Michael Turner) but you can be damm sure he wouldn't have recognised them or credited them as writers.
While we're on the subject of European comics, Pierre Christin definitely rates as 'genuinely good' imho.
how can you stay mad at someone for forty years for playing sax for a while because they liked Art Pepper, and then playing some quotes from Miles on a few gigs in 1985?
LOL nice try sic, but c'mon - Giffen profited from the work and imagination of another artist without any kind of acknowledgement (until he was caught swiping panel after panel after panel) - really don't see the difference between him and Stan Lee here.
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:37 (five years ago) link
Ethics aside, I give Giffen a pass because his (non-swiped) work is so good, especially the Heckler, 5YL-era stuff. It's such a shame that he never paired with better writers.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:46 (five years ago) link
fwiw German readers make this sort of claim for Erika Fuchs, who translated a bunch of Barks and other Disney comics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Fuchs
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:51 (five years ago) link
Comic writers have had much more luck being able to move into the bigger money of working in TV quite a bit more now than before, since so many comic properties have made a gazillion dollars. A couple of the old 70s-80s comic guys like Chaykin did some tv work, but it was less common.
― earlnash, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 14:36 (five years ago) link
jeph_loeb_filmography.docx
― sign up for my waterless urinals webinar (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 14:37 (five years ago) link
Although I was clearly going for lazy snark re: Gaiman upthread, I think he does some things very well even though I can't quite bring myself to drop his name into the 'I think _____ is a genuinely good writer' construction. Like when I saw that he did a book about Norse mythology? I was like, I'll bet that's an awesome book of Norse mythology.
― 'Rock Me (I'm a Dais)' (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 14:59 (five years ago) link
yeah, i've enjoyed plenty of gaiman, i just don't think anyone so inclined towards tweeness can be recommended without reservation
these days i think the gaiman-adjacent thing i enjoy most is the stardust movie tbh
― sign up for my waterless urinals webinar (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 15:05 (five years ago) link
The older I get, the more I'm inclined to like and enjoy Gaiman, even though he's done a lot of rubbish. I think what I like is, he treats almost every project like a potential starting point for a new reader (there's that "good reader" thing) again. But at the same time, he's not a gateway drug and he's not a "comics for people who don't like comics" writer.
None of the people I know who enjoy his work are twee goths, either.
But yes, a lot of it is bad. My family love Neverwhere and I can't bring myself to talk to them about it.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 16:50 (five years ago) link
Also interested to see what he comes up with showrunning Good Omens. It could be the ultimate in Gaimanny indulgence, or it could be really good, or it could be both!
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
Again, just to be clear, I do actually enjoy at least some of Gaiman's work, but, as is the case with probably 95% of what I enjoy, I don't think 'enjoyment' alone is enough to elevate a work to the status of 'genuinely good'. I also enjoy the film Robot Monster.
― 'Rock Me (I'm a Dais)' (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 16:59 (five years ago) link
it'd be interesting to see whom collaborating artists consider the best writers. if gaiman turned in incoherent outlines scribbled on the back of rolling papers we'd be none the wiser.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:11 (five years ago) link
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, November 20, 2018 8:19 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Horrocks, let's not forget
― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:30 (five years ago) link
Plots/Structures/Characters/Settings etc in Asterix all come from Goscinny/Uderzo.
also, the comic. Bell and Hockridge wrote some jokes over the top of a comic that already existed.
Herge said similarly complimentary things about the English language versions of the Tintin albums (translated by Leslie Lonsdale-Cooper and Michael Turner) but you can be damm sure he wouldn't have recognised them or credited them as writers.
Herge didn't even credit the artists!
"how can you stay mad at someone for forty years for playing sax for a while because they liked Art Pepper, and then playing some quotes from Miles on a few gigs in 1985?"
I'm not familiar with his work before he started half-writing it, but my impression of the Kirby period is that he was influenced by Kirby body language (certainly he was the only Marvel artist ever to be so) and stuck Starlin faces over the top, not that he was ripping Kirby panels.
And the Munoz rips sit extremely different in context 33 years later, having seen many instances of Giffen first taking on another style and then adapting it to his own ends (eg keeping shadowy faces through a couple of styles after Munoz, taking on a fine-lined Maguire-esque approach to faces on the Invasion fill-in, then rebuilding his entire structure of body language around those blocky heads by The Magic Wars [and then dumping that style and inventing an entirely new one in two months before 5YL!]). Out of hundreds of panels he did in the Munoz style, directly quoting 8 or so of them doesn't bother me overmuch. It's 1985! Half the best records out are made of huge actual samples of other records. Plus at the same time he was working on ways of arranging panels and panel-to-panel flow that had nothing to do with Munoz' storytelling.
Denying it once was nagl, fessing up immediately after that and continuing to give shine to Munoz and apologies to the entire world for decades afterwards has surely earned him your slightly-reduced enmity.
― Bing The Mighty Seat (sic), Thursday, 22 November 2018 19:28 (five years ago) link
I wish the Magic Wars stuff was collected, doesn’t seem to be(?); so I haven’t read the end of the Baxter series (and the end of “true”/classic LSH, as far as I’m concerned).
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Thursday, 22 November 2018 22:33 (five years ago) link
(5YL also hasn’t been collected, and probably should be, for historical interest — but I don’t think it’s aged very well.)
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Thursday, 22 November 2018 22:37 (five years ago) link
All of it's on Comixology.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 22 November 2018 22:49 (five years ago) link
Cool, maybe I’ll check it out next time they run a promotion or something.
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Thursday, 22 November 2018 23:48 (five years ago) link
I think they're $1.99 an issue. I've never seen them on sale but fingers crossed.
― EZ Snappin, Friday, 23 November 2018 00:43 (five years ago) link
Huh, that does seem more economical (on a per-issue basis) than the collections themselves, when they exist (I think the Magic Wars arc itself is only 4 issues, but there are a lot of issues prior to that I’d like to go through).
― my guitar friend wants his money (morrisp), Friday, 23 November 2018 01:37 (five years ago) link
afaik only the first 5 out of 63 issues of the Baxter series were collected? It’s probably still cheaper to buy on paper than digital even today (I bought the Tales Of newsprint reprints in the ‘90s when I caught up during 5YL)There are for sure some reallly fallow periods when Giffen’s not on the book, but it all pays off (yeah, he’s back a year or so before Magic Wars) & Levitz is good at keeping the soap churning.
― Bing The Mighty Seat (sic), Friday, 23 November 2018 08:51 (five years ago) link
I have no good reasons but I love the Alien ripoff and also the idea that 80s teenagers spent the decade following Claremont's wackadoo idiosyncrasies and fetishes like they were the Talmud or something
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 00:00 (five years ago) link