Is the West Experiencing a Left-Wing Drift? (the international left politics activism, news, and strategy thread)

wonder what the differences are between bhaskar sunkara - associated with trotskyists, has supported entryist socdem electoralism (bernie sanders, podemos) and someone from the imt - trotskyist party, engages in entryist socdem electoralism?

i guess it's probably his - and vivek chibber's - belief that there will not be a revolution and that more gradual approaches have to be taken

idk what Sunkara's trot associations are exactly but AFAIK the IMT (at least in the US) desires the formation of a genuine workers' party and doesn't consider the Dems capable of meaningful reform (unlike the NDP or Labour parties which it considers structurally and historically distinct)

so yeah your previous post not offtm I think

he launched Catalyst with Robert Brenner (who is a trotskyist), and Vivek Chibber (a disciple of Brenner's). although Brenner has since been forced out - for political reasons according to Brenner

ah

anyway I'm suspicious of Sunkara mostly because Jacobin publishes a lot of garbage takes

69 years ago today the KGB put a pick axe in the back of Leon Trotsky's skull. One of the greatest figures in human history without a doubt.

— Bhaskar Sunkara (@sunraysunray) August 21, 2009

nice and all, but I don't think that doesn't mean there's significant ideological space btwn them (certainly enough for what I hope will be an interesting debate)

yeah i guess I'm being flip. and yes, it is more interesting to me than debate as a fight between opposites who are somehow supposed to convince or best each other (which obv won't happen)

I'm also curious because ppl I know think pretty highly of john peterson (of whose work I know nothing)

also, Jacobin's dumbness is fresh on my mind thanks to the architecture piece everyone was correctly dragging yesterday

oh I've just googled that lol

@mcmansionhell on twitter does a predictably good job of dragging it, but so did dozens of others

I read that Meagan Day Jacobin article, and I didn't see anything wrong with it. The @mcmansionhell tweets, and the article of hers that she referred to (in which she "warned the left" about the "patently reactionary" thing Day is supposedly doing in the Jacobin piece) left me none the wiser.

As far as I can tell, the idea is that any aesthetic criticism of any public housing is objectionable, even if you do it in an explicitly pro-public-housing context, because people who are against public housing sometimes do something kind of similar to completely different ends. But that would be silly, so I must be missing something.

There's definitely always been a faction of the left, in various guises, that believes it's outrageous to criticize our own shortfalls

JRN OTM

tbh I assumed the piece is a lot worse than it is based on whomst I saw make objections (people I generally trust) - in particular I don't detect Day inserting her own aesthetic preferences as much as ppl were complaining about, to the extent that I wonder if it underwent a post-publication edit. the more likely explanation is that aesthetic discussion of public housing just provoke automatic revulsion because it's typically a NIMBY line

I'll make it prettier than this... but more voters identified as liberal in 2018 than in any exit poll since they began back in 1976... Fewer identified as moderate than in any exit poll since they began back in 1976... pic.twitter.com/NULAKFYLZm

— (((Harry Enten))) (@ForecasterEnten) November 16, 2018

which is why it's so incredibly tactically dumb for the left-left to demonize "liberals"--like, they're trying guys! Identifying as a "liberal" is a huge step to the left for a lot of people!

when i was a baby i used to call myself liberal even tho i was p much leftist i just thought liberal was the word

until like 2013 prob tbh

I mean it is a huge step to the left for a lot of people, and also if by the 'left-left' you mean socialists or anarchists or communists, it's worth remembering that there's a century's worth of betrayals that've seeded the bad blood there. It's not all snarling for fun's sake.

Yeah, I remember how betrayed Glenn Greenwald felt by the Taft-Hartley act.

ah who could forget famous american anarchist glenn greenwald

will you one day learn to read, fred

"We need a mass socialist politics that doesn't get caught up in policing individual virtue!" I say, when you tell me it hurt your feelings when I walked in drunk to your party and punched your cake

— Yiff In My Back Yard (@HanginOutOnline) November 19, 2018

sorry i punched your cake fred

Yiff In My Back Yard

i'm still a lib

never really understood the left-lib divide though, tbh except for real far-left nutjobs who i just discount to zero. i feel affinity to both in spirit; there are libs that annoy me, and leftists that do. but it's more contrarian to id as lib now

in my world of ppl, at least

have u never heard "Love Me, I'm A Liberal"? it's a pretty succinct overview of the problem IMO (given that leftists can be just as annoying, for sure)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

and then of course there's the slightly-less-nail-on-the-head but similarly themed 'baby i'm an anarchist!'

more in line with the mockery of the original is david rovics 'i'm a better anarchist than you'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvlWSnLxrrc

I don't eat meat; I just live on moldy chives
Or the donuts that I found in last week's dumpster dives
Look you people in that restaurant, I think you are so sad
When you could've been eating bagels like the ones that I just had
I think it is a shame all the bourgeois things you do
I'm a better anarchist than you

I don't wear leather and I like my clothes in black
And I made a really cool hammock from a moldy coffee sack
I like to hop on freight trains, I think that is so cool
It's so much funner doing this than being stuck in school
I can't believe you're wearing those brand new shiny shoes
I'm a better anarchist than you

I don't have sex and there will be no sequel
Because heterosexual relationships are inherently unequal
I'll just keep on moshing to Anti-Flag and Clash
Until there are no differences in gender, race or class
All you brainwashed breeders, you just haven't got a clue
I'm a better anarchist than you

I am not a pacifist, I like throwing bricks
And when the cops have caught me and I've taken a few licks
I always feel lucky if I get a bloody nose
'Cause I feel so militant and everybody knows
By the time the riot is all through
I'm a better anarchist than you

<3

Feels like a lot of open left-lib beef (excluding specific criticism of powerful centrists) is people being very online, confusing the remaining dumbasses who are still mad about Bernie as a group representative of American liberals (who overwhelmingly approve of social democrats like Bernie and AOC every time they're polled).

Side note: I have to say as someone who was increasingly meh about AOC over time I've really been enjoying the extent to which she drives both that tiny slice of extremely online anti-left Dems as well as seemingly the entire right absolutely insane. Also it's refreshing to have an A+ poster in government.

never really understood the left-lib divide though

Come to the UK and we can explain the history of the Liberal Party and Labour Party to you.

Upsetting, but also props to DSA SF:

http://www.sfweekly.com/news/democratic-socialists-distribute-more-n95-masks-than-the-city/

I thought this thread critiquing the Angela Nagle immigration article was good

what she's concerned about is that wages in rich countries would crater if immigration controls on labor were not maintained. she's not wrong, since the wages we enjoy here are largely at the expense of wages elsewhere, and "free market" trade policies are exploitative BS.

— single white ML🌹 (@uhshanti) November 20, 2018

can anyone recommend some pro-open borders left writing that deals the implications of this point, that open borders would lower wages and living standards in rich countries? how the left in rich countries should organize around this issue, rather than just retreating into nativism?

some stuff

most of the left arguments I see making the case for open borders deny that there would be any negative effects for workers in rich countries, or at least play down the idea, e.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/16/democrats-immigration-policy-open-borders-dreamers

that tweet thread was interesting because it made the case for open borders while also acknowledging that open borders would not necessarily be in the interest of workers in rich countries. it's difficult to disagree with the argument she makes, there's no moral case that can be made for a "socialism" where solidarity ends at national borders - but how does the left builds mass support for open borders in rich countries if/when it is not in the self-interest of workers in those countries to support it? or is there a way for the left to push for open borders without gaining mass support for the idea?

(I suppose some on the left argue that open borders *are* in the self-interest of workers in rich countries, but as part of a wider long term movement to abolish capitalism and establish global communism?)

(or point out that even if fully open borders would have negative consequences for workers in rich countries, the limited levels of immigration taking place now do not? but that seems to lead to a position that there's an 'acceptable' level of immigration, and arguments about where that level should be set, which a lot of the left would reject?)

I think your first parenthetical is accurate - like the 'abolishing student debt isn't progressive' thing that went around a day or two ago, at our status quo open borders and abolishing debt aren't necessarily good for most American workers - they have to be combined with a socialist or socialist-adjacent movement ('abolishing student debt' with a benefit for people who couldn't afford to go to college in the first place + free college henceforth) to benefit someone other than the upper-middle class that has $100k in college debt and employers who want to futher dilute the power of labor.

I know what katy's going for here in this thread but I think being prescriptive about this is fucking delusional and I wanted to vent about that briefly here so I didn't dare do it on twitter

you can’t be a socialist and have hiring/firing power or power over someone’s wages. even if not, if you’re a manager, your job is to be a snitch.

— spectre haunting labor (@itsbreadtimebch) November 21, 2018

Like yes, that is in the job duties for managerial roles but a. have fun organizing your local starbucks without getting all your friends fired and b. anyone who';s ever worked for a corporate behemoth knows that these managerial roles often come with very lax oversight and it's very easy to deliberately be a lax or outright fraudulent snitch. but sure go ahead and tell people who may have dependents at home to turn down that extra three bucks an hour so you can feel more righteous or whatever.

ok rant over

I think snitchdom is the general expectation but, depending on the environment, the actual implementation of snitchery is kinda down to the individual.

(That said, I've declined every managerial offer I've ever received because fuck that shit.)

Oh as a personal choice it's completely valid and even laudable if you have the flexibility. I just hate it as a prescription. It's the lefty version of liberal scolding.

(I would like to emphasize that I have not nor have I ever been a manager of anyone.)

The strongest force pushing for open borders right now is capital, and the capitalist version of open borders basically amounts to precarious people shunted or forced back and forth in search of subsistence and safety and without rights. Precarious immigrant labor is not only cheaper but less able to speak up for itself or fight back. The capitalist goal is labor in a state of permanent flux and insecurity.

The left case for open borders is good in the abstract but I don't think it can be the priority as long as this is the reality, especially since, as noted above, we need to build support. Labor rights for immigrants is a better near-term goal.

Also agree that it's kind of counterproductive to call out people who make an extra $2/hour and have some glorified title and a couple extra responsibilities like they're the gestapo.

yeah I don't personally envision spending a lot of energy talking about open borders in the near future, except to call out bad takes like angela NAGL's

re: managers, yeah I've been discussing this w/ others and they have, correctly I think, pointed out that these roles exist in part to keep workers divided, so reinforcing those divisions seems silly

oh what the hell my last post had some good links in it when i hit post