The Jordan Peterson Thread

(don't read the comments, yeesh)

nicky why not just go full objectivist

to be fair to nicky, i do understand why peterson would be appealing. a kind of kooky scholar who has all kinds of things to say about religion, psychology and history who also is a self-help guru, taking seriously the problems of underachieving, depressed (mostly white) men, a group that doesn't always find a lot of sympathy online.

the problem is, this stuff is a con and his main project is not helping people but pushing right wing politics.

So, again, who here is not greedy?

Me.

What like Charles Reznikoff and George Oppen?

xp (x2)

Treeship & Granny OTM re: JP = fast food philosophy / humanities

Read the Gulag Archipelago

One of the things he is always talking about is that people don't just discuss the ideas.

90% of this thread is just bashing his whole being.

From what I see he does not have a political agenda. If others use some of his words to push their own, I don't think it's his fault.

He has spent most of his life teaching and trying to help individuals in a clynical setting.

Again, he never claims to have all the answers and he doesn't come off like that at all.

Sorry to butt in. Continue with the stone throwing.
He should just lay down and die, the worthless puece of shit.

Carry on with that diet and he just might.

THE IDEAS

FINALLY A PURE-HEARTED SOUL WHO WISHES ONLY TO DISCUSS A FEW IDEAS

lol!

clynical setting

Heh.

Saying or implying transness isn't real/valid is absolutely a political stance.

lol j.

Nicky, he initially came to prominence (in the wider world outside his scholarly discipline) because his political activism on Bill C-16 and transgender pronouns made him a Canadian media celebrity. It is blatantly false to say that he does not have a political agenda. xps to nicky

Sorry to butt in. Continue with the stone throwing.
He should just lay down and die, the worthless puece of shit.

― nicky lo-fi, Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:27 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

come on, when did i say anything like that?

it's extremely clear what his political agenda is when he rails against cultural marxism and the evil doctrine of "equity." it's not reading between the lines to find a nefarious motive. it's the lines.

Piece of shit is a bit harsh, worthless is spot on though.

And I refer you to the direct quote in the OP: he absolutely has an agenda and an aggressive one. xps

That article about the decline of humanities majors in (I think) the New York got me thinking about Max Read's point about JP again -- anyway it was pointed out that many students come into college with an interest in the humanities but soon enough are majoring in marketing or whatever.

the New Yorker

sorry it was the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/11/colleges-studying-humanities-promotion/574621/

Let's assume for a second that we can set the politics aside (which we can't – this is the main reason I refuse to take him seriously, but some Socratic humouring may be necessary to move forward): what does he bring to the table that other living 'thinkers' don't? A recognisable media presence? An allegedly tragic, neo-existential edginess? A willingness to take on so-called PC culture? A poor man's Christopher Hitchens? And once we've identified these elements, who can we suggest as an accessible alternative? Real question, kind of related to the 'friend infected with right-wing worms' thread.

his political agenda included speaking out against the Liberal government in the last Ontario election

I've linked her stuff here and elsewhere but Contrapoints (who has an excellent vid on the Dark Professor) is a good alternative if you're looking for someone who rejects traditional academic circles but actually knows their stuff and packages it in an enjoyable, accessible way. Her vid on incels is a good starting point.

accessible alternative

Accessible for JP's audience would necessarily include being a YouTube personality I suppose :-/

Contrapoints is really cool, but I doubt many of JP's followers would give her a fair shake.

Contrapoints is awesome

I'm a bit of a stan for him but Nathan j Robinson is a good tonic for JP

Dead at the notion he has no political agenda.

- thinks birth control is damaging to society
- thinks the same of gay marriage
- thinks men should be allowed to hit women (and that’s a sticking point that’s always a MASSIVE red flag)
- constantly bangs on about anti Semitic dog whistle “cultural Marxism”
- thinks women should be forced into marriage for the good of society

Honestly the current affairs piece on him says it all. He’s a charlatan, a fundamentalist and anyone who can’t see what he is agrees with it on some level.

Incidentally, I think there needs to be an explicitly psychological, even self-help component to the alternative I'm looking for, as it's possibly the main reason so many young men flock to JP in the first place. Ideally a Trojan horse type figure: 'I see where you're coming from, I sort of feel the same, but here is why you're ultimately wrong'.

I was thinking that if JP was really smart he'd pivot to being Oprah for disaffected young men.

the ~intellectual~ imprimatur of his presentation is, however, a very important element for his audience...as is the insistence on natural hierarchy.

"Dr. Peterson"

Has he gone? I usually try to assume good faith, but, you know...

Reading that Nathan J. Robinson piece in Current Affairs, I totally get why he's saying this but to my mind it's the kind of (typically sociological) claim that would repel most JP enthusiasts (and potential converts):

I’m skeptical that free will matters very much (if at all), and I recognize that none us chooses either our nature or our nurture and that most of what we are is the inheritance of a billion-year process that we had no say over.

Honestly I don’t like that point of view either.

I don't see this spelled out that often, but I think one of the appeals to peterson in the trump era is that he provides a form of 'intellectual conservatism' for conservabros who are smart enough to know that mainstream trumpy conservatism is indefensible. so it's not just oprah for white bros or a reaction to identity politics, it's also someone filling in that Buckley void.

You can’t be anything you want but there’s a space for freedom with our constraints, and to me that’s the essence of human dignity. In my opinion. I know many others disagree. I don’t think this point of view is the same as saying everyone is “to blame” for how they fare in a profoundly unequal society—that seems like a perverse misuse of the idea of freedom.

Xp

Also, sorry re. off topic tangent

but the ideas

please god won't somebody think of the ideas

try to keep your eye on the ideas, treezy

I was going to say before you brought her up: the contrapoints video on jordan peterson is really good, and much more charitable and thoughtful than ilx on his general place in the world and value.

Contrapoints's newest video (on Ben Shapiro, with some swipes at Peterson) is lovely.

his political agenda included speaking out against the Liberal government in the last Ontario election

Was gonna say. I don't blame non-Canadians for not following but he openly campaigns against parties and leaders. Google "jordan peterson trudeau" or "jordan peterson wynne".

I have a friend who’s infected with JP brain worms and he just doesn’t hear the dog whistles. I think JP is quite good at choosing his words very carefully while also choosing his evidence very carefully to lean hard into the prejudices he inherited long ago growing up in his little Alberta town.

It certainly sounds reasonable to want a rational discussion about freedom, responsibility, authority, and how-should-we-best-live. Did we throw some baby out with the bath water when we overturned centuries of judeo-xtian hegemonic thought & man-in-the-grey-flannel-suit cultural normativity? Worth asking. But the conclusions he comes to are all foregone; he’s not arguing in good faith; when you follow him through his lines of “questioning”, they reveal themselves to be pure sophistry. You can figure out where every one of his will end up by reading the playbook of, like, Sarah Palin — the only difference between them is that he knows how to get there by building a bridge to conclusions instead of just jumping there.

And that’s why I can’t be arsed to engage anymore: it’s the same old shit, just in a more laboriously reasoned-out pile.

it's also someone filling in that Buckley void.

― iatee, Saturday, November 3, 2018 3:24 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

holy shit this is so fucking true

Oh man yes how has that not been pointed out before

Similar intellectual bankruptcy at work

great post HD

I don't see this spelled out that often, but I think one of the appeals to peterson in the trump era is that he provides a form of 'intellectual conservatism' for conservabros who are smart enough to know that mainstream trumpy conservatism is indefensible. so it's not just oprah for white bros or a reaction to identity politics, it's also someone filling in that Buckley void.

I tried to introduce Rothko to one of these people, a fellow teacher, and he responded with "They [my ~10 year-old students] will be able to paint like that pretty soon! I prefer things like the Sistine Chapel," and whirled back around in his chair. Weeks later he told someone else in the office that "Picasso is basically where art ended" and "if someone paints a dot, and calls it art, it's like, no it's not."

That smug, ignorant, knee-jerk classicism - modern art is decadent, easy, phony, etc. - is so consonant with the rest of the shtick.

his main project is not helping people but pushing right wing politics.

And "NO SAFE SPACES" coffee mugs, mousepads, etc.

I'm no WFB fan but comparing this mouth-breathing halfwit to him is a joke