Mitski

very late to this discussion / please don't yell at me for holding this opinion

but "relating to" a song is a fundamental method of developing emotional connections to music used by millions of people, probably a certain higher-than-par percentage of whom are women or girls. My sister related the hell to Taylor Swift when she was 15, and I mention Taylor because with Mitski as well, it seems to be fairly key to how many of her fans relate to her music. I don't understand dismissing it; to me it just seems like a somewhat abstracted, obfuscated version of "lyrics don't matter," which I also disagree with.

(I don't particularly relate to most of Mitski's songs, for what it's worth, which is possibly why I think it's a good album but don't have any special emotional connection to it, and thus don't listen to it that often, since I'd rather listen to the ones I do.)

"Relating" to music sounds effectively the same as feeling communion with any piece of art, whether it's a song or a book or a movie. When I hear/see/read my inner behavior reflected, acknowledged, and externalized by an artist, there's a relationship there.

I don't think I'm the same, but my "inner behavior" is pretty dull and not something I'd probably want to engage with in externalized artistic form (lol).

I also don't know that it's possible to talk about "Your Best American Girl," in particular, without talking about it as a song that a lot of listeners do relate to. I'm probably not the best person to expand on that, since for a lot of people the song draws upon specifically Asian American experience. but it seems an odd thing to dismiss

I thought this was a good piece (not about "Your Best American Girl" specifically), the last few paragraphs in particular https://www.npr.org/2018/09/06/642252679/mitski-is-the-21st-centurys-poet-laureate-of-young-adulthood

Yeah, some folks on here seem to interpret "relating to" as meaning having the exact same experience. To me, it's just connecting with the emotions of a song.

also possible to relate to a song while realizing that it is objectively bad, which is where some of people's "guilty pleasures" probably come from

That NPR article's pretty harsh on Lena Dunham, lol

xxp yes

xp "guilty pleasure" is a wack concept, there is no "objectively bad" art

I just meant people's conception of a "guilty pleasure" which is a concept that I think we can all agree exists in the world for some people

as far as "objectively bad" art I was referring to relating to a song while also as a critic finding it to be a bad song, which I thought was what I was supposed to do

sure, it'd still be subjectively bad

I really did miss the nitpicking of semantics

it's an essential ingredient in this glorious stew

That NPR article's pretty harsh on Lena Dunham, lol

― a neon light ablaze in this green smoky haze (morrisp), Tuesday, 23 October 2018 21:16 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i haven't read it but it isn't harsh enough

Iggy Pop has called Mitski "the most advanced American songwriter,"

why on earth ppl are dealing with guy above as if he’s arguing in good faith after the kurt cobain drop is beyond me

lena dunham's alright

Lena Dunham is awful

i mean she’s pretty talented but she’s awful

I was just talking about the "relating to" thing since it just seems like such a core way to have an emotional response to music, which is part of what is music is for, and also seems to be the source of Mitski's appeal for a lot of the people who love her

she takes a lot of risks and they don't all pay off. in her show, in her public statements, etc.

i find her almost tragic bc she wants to be woke so bad but she will always be problematic.

lena not mitski. wrong thread

i feel that mitski repels identification as much as she invites it. there is an edge to some of these songs that suggests a frightening darkness you, the listener, don't really want to get sucked into. imago used the word "dysphoria" to describe the mood of some of these songs and i think that's right.

sometimes it's just subtle shifts in the lyrics that throw you slightly off. like in fireworks, on first brush, is a song about someone who goes numb due to depression but then--apparently--has a cathartic moment brought on by fireworks. but if look closer it's not really that at all. she says "i'll listen to the memories as they cry, cry, cry." she's not crying--it's like the alienation is complete, right here at the moment when it was supposed to fall away . i feel there are other twists like this throughout her oeuvre.

Maybe that is what people identify with. I recognized the feeling that caused her to write it that way—her being outside her own memories.

i relate extremely closely to her timbral and melodic choices

I think that's what I said?

Fwiw, I still think "I don't get 'relating' to lyrics. They're someone else's stories" is different from "it is possible to relate to someone else's stories" but those explanations were great, thanks to you and Brad.

the thread just seemed to have settled on a consensus of "relating to songs is fake/is annoying/is bad criticism/see even Welles said so," which wipes out a good 75% of my method of and pleasure/catharsis in listening to music

(like anything else "relatability" is a tool and songwriters can wield it in different ways. the example that comes to mind is St. Vincent singing through gritted teeth "I am a lot like you, I am alone like you" in a song directed at audiences -- she also calls herself "(their) casualty." the mitski record doesn't weaponize this so much, but its directness in lyrics definitely seems written with that in mind. of course, to relate to, say, "I'm not wearing my usual lipstick" you need to be the sort of person who has a usual lipstick)

I appreciated your posts.

Art enables us to experience the world in new ways, and one way lyrical art does so is by describing, in a glimpse, the experience of being another person. I can see many reasons why people would want to avoid that experience, but for me it's a fundamental reason to keep listening to lyrical music.

that is not the consensus this thread came to but fine

i think the point me and alfred were making is that not relating to mistki songs isn't an obstacle to enjoying her music. we were primarily reacting to a series of very bad posts. we weren't trying to be prescriptive about anyone else's approach to music

any good resonant art imo we should see a wider picture than just ourselves in, and anytime as a critic my first reaction is "i relate to this" i work v hard to get outside of it bc it seems a v solipsistic relationship to have with art and that it doesn't necessarily inform anybody else of why that art is good

― princess of hell (BradNelson), Wednesday, October 10, 2018 5:33 AM (two weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like, this is just my approach, it doesn't have to be anyone else's. i just try to keep myself open and available to experiences that are not my own and distrust whenever i like something bc it resembles my experience

also obv i like a ton of music bc i relate to it, and "relate" even seems like an inadequate word at this point; i love death metal bc it sounds like the inside of my head, which is probably a way of relating!

apologies, a consensus is just what it had seemed like

Theory: Mitski's father was a CIA operative (from wiki but it's from a guardian interview)

https://i.postimg.cc/zGtcYPWX/mitski.jpg

Mitski uses irony in a way that seems unique for a songwriter and very contemporary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYbXt4_r9Pw

oh this rules but as usual with her stuff i wish it were longer

Wild how the concept of "hits" has been warped by the streaming age -- largely by TikTok, particularly in the alt/indie world. "Your Best American Girl" not currently listed in Mitski's 10 most popular songs page on Spotify, but three songs from her 2013 self-released LP are. pic.twitter.com/SiwXyHCRfy

— Andrew Unterberger (@AUgetoffmygold) October 5, 2021

Thanks 4 heads up on this!

"Your Best American Girl" has higher streaming numbers than three songs in that list, though; the thing is that Spotify's Popular lists seem to work on a mix of different criteria.

oh this rules but as usual with her stuff i wish it were longer

Agreed that it rules, but I think her economy is one of her greatest strengths.

Not sure what criteria are for the Popular list. Maybe it weights more recent streams higher?

feel like it bears repeating that this is an exceptional comeback by any metric

wish it was longer? it's 5 minutes long!

haha

in fact, this is longer than any song on any of her last three albums.

it's 72 seconds longer than the *longest* song (by quite a bit) on Be The Cowboy!

this is looong for Mitski!

and now i will listen to it for the first time

AW HELL

i just looked at the video run time

still, it's like 4 minutes, which is long for her

anyway ... my bad everyone. please carry on.