Taking sides: Children vs. (non-human) animals

is the suggestion that you are going to save the world, or your kids are, tb?

nb i think the world is grand, apart from apocalyptists. every generation seems to think it has to save the world, seems v unlikely that theyre all correct.

my actual reason is yr second paragraph

Also not having kids is easy as shit

Rong

So basically since you’re all powerless to make the world anything more than a shithole, you have no faith in anyone else that resembles you being able to do any better. Reasonable assumption.

Uhm... yes!

disappointing revive tbh -- there's just no substitute for lex's absurd solipsism

― mookieproof, Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:03 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was going to lay in to my heavily abstract anti-natalism based on the argument that it's a harm to come into existence but I lost heart. I want to reiterate that I think kids are good.

our kid is a constant joy and source of much terror, who needs a book of ghost stories to read at night when you know you're going to have a shadowy figure standing silently by your bed at 5 AM every morning?

lol yes

tbf I have distinct memories of doing exactly that to my dad, so circle of life etc.

Is "I want to pass on my genes/want to pass on something" still a thing for people to have kids? Or has that argument died along with the aristocracies and their (inbred) families? Do men (men bcz women wouldn't be this dumb) "value" passing on their genes still?

My aim is to leave as little trace of myself as possible. Posting on ilx not helping tbh.

Thread's drowning in edginess. Didn't realise it was I Love Nihilism all along.

well "passing on your genes" is pretty neat, my boy is almost 4 and I can see he's got a face like mine and a number of my personality traits. you connect with them in a way you couldn't with any other human being. so that's cool.

That is cool! Was genuinely curious, nihilistic or not.

Seeing parts of myself in my kid is a source of mild delight tempered by mild oh noes

Actual full-fledged delight is when the confluence of mom & dad genes manifests itself in completely unexpected ways

I think having kids because you think that they'll take care of you is one of the most selfish reasons. Don't put that on your kid.

― Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, October 9, 2018 10:29 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

god yeah i'm gonna be in no position whatsoever to take care of my parents when the time comes

Is "I want to pass on my genes/want to pass on something" still a thing for people to have kids? Or has that argument died along with the aristocracies and their (inbred) families? Do men (men bcz women wouldn't be this dumb) "value" passing on their genes still?

this isn't conscious for me at all but i assume this is animating all childbearing decisions since it's an imperative that all living things have

my kids can be extremely challenging but by some goddamn miracle they stay in their beds when we put them to sleep and remain there until we go get them in the morning when they awake

But this is my question: do all living things really have that imperative? I don't think they do (anymore). I don't. I'm the first to admit I'm not by any means a yardstick in this, but the erasure of the imperative to have kids is something I see around me and my generation and friends quite a lot. I do not think it is a given or imperative any more. xp

assume this is animating all childbearing decisions since it's an imperative that all living things have

It is always good to remind ourselves that our conscious brain has only limited and marginal control over the rest of our brain and body. There's always more going on outside of conscious control than within it.

We evolve tho, whether our "conscious brain" knows or recognizes this or not.

I can count on one hand the number of women I know that are past childbearing age that don't regret not having children. those hormones are *intense*

and last time I checked the human population was still expanding/reproducing

oof

women are hormonal right enough

that is a hard one to parse tbh

men have evolved to the point where we mostly want to make children in order to pass on our musical tastes

then i doubly urge ilxors to refrain

tombot otm. For some couples it is extremely easy to not have children and also save money. Absolutely no regrets. Having a period already feels like being hungover, having the flu and eating way too much pasta all at once. Pregnancy is way too much stress on the body.

My mom also worries about me not having kids and dying alone. I just start on my "we all die alone" monologue.

I don't disagree with your last post Mordy but I think the idea of imperative is nebulous and I'm not sure of its explanatory power. We might well be products of desires we're not conscious of but without some maths I dunno. Not that I'm disagreeing, I just think selfish gene theory needs fleshing out.

my dad asked me just once about it i pointed out my civil service pension for future requirements and his own performance as a historical argument against

selfish gene theory has an addendum noting that individual reproductive drive/output drops depending on species/pack environment stressors iirc so yknow maybe that

I've felt for a long while that pure evolutionary theories tend to ignore the spanners that culture throws I their works.

there's an interesting bit in triste tropiques about how one of the tribes levi-strauss pals about with dislike having children, are openly negative about pregnancy and childbearing, and use abortifacients. the obvious idea is that in their parlous situation they don't need more mouths to feed, but none of the other tribes he encounters, in similar circumstances, are similar in that respect. culture is a weird thing

also you can have sex now without having kids idk if they have this where ye are but its a big deal where im from

all you bloody lot who don't want kids still bloody moan on and on on here. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW FREE YOU ARE, YOU SWEET FOOLS

(obviously lots of delightful exceptions)

which is to say, I have kids, I love them, I don't particularly love anyone else's kids, but man it is hard in these early years. I fully recognise I've got some sort of Stockholm Syndrome where my experience of what 'a nice time' is has been drastically downgraded

fucking without kids has often been a big problem for most catholic priests.

which is to say that "kids", like "people", is pretty weak as an abstract concept

Lol xp

It's frankly astounding how resolute I, my siblings, and numerous cousins on my mom's side (only one of whom has yet to make it to/past his thirties) are in making sure the family line dies with the lot of us.

Lunch, uh, finds a way

xp Jealous! I wish that was what could bond me and my bro and sis, but alas. Sis has kids, bro dying to have kids (into IVF trajecotry now, he hates my guts for not wanting kids rn), it's not working out that way.

that wish is a bit fucked up for your nieces and/or nephews

My mom is recently mad at me (again) because I am not leaving my brothers or their kids anything in my will. I only made a will because it was free to do. But also, it's shitty to expect anything to be left to you when someone dies.

(My parents only made a will a couple years ago and I was incensed because, like, I was well into adulthood!)

Supposedly my brothers just finally decided to make a will and want to ask me to take care of the kids in case anything happens (considering one is a cop married to a firefighter, uh). But they won't ask me directly and keep asking my mom instead.

i was left funeral expenses in one will and ive asked the other one to if nothin else just cover that pls and thankyou otherwise yeah fuck wills

I'm all for 100% inheritance tax

My entire family voted for Trump so I told them that I am leaving all my money to Planned Parenthood and Black Lives Matter.

Apparently we’ll inherit like a few million when my dad apparently decides to bite the big one

xp if you reluctantly accept and end up remolding the kids of your trump loving brother into excellent humans, you could sell the movie rights