Book Group: Helen DeWitt's "The Last Samurai" - Discussion Thread

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Tomorrow: how do you solve a financial problem like HdW.

Fizzles, Sunday, 7 October 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link

I want to be her unpaid intern for life tbh

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Sunday, 7 October 2018 19:02 (five years ago) link

well i'm not sure she wouldn't accept that dangerous offer, silby.

as she mentions at the end of Some Trick there are people around who like her work well enough to want to try and support her generally in a way that will allow her to write more, and extends slightly further than the buy me a coffee page she has.

the challenge is that i think she sees anything that isn't writing the sort of thing that she wants to write as opportunity cost, lost time, a serious and unwelcome distraction no different from any other distraction from writing. or as she put it

and it seems as though before
anything can happen I need to think about what I would like, what (if
any) rewards I would like to give supporters, and so on. That is,
there's something of an impasse, because I can't think about these
things without neglecting other things that urgently need to be done

i get the feeling that she's probably a fairly inefficient writer, which I don't mean in a bad way, but if she wants to get to the bottom of something she will spend three days on stack overflow doing that. I'm not sure i'd want it any different, given her output is partly predicated on logical loops taken to absurd extremes. but possibly that sort of thing contributes to the list of things that 'urgently need to be done'.

but generally her aversion to anything much more than signing books, as one of the people who is trying to help her said, makes her difficult to help. he initially suggested a Patreon model, but it sounds like anything other than straight funding of her writing in a general way – ie anything like tiering or rewards – is not likely to be amenable.

Now one response to all this is of course a slightly exasperated throwing of hands up in the air. 'God helps those who help themselves' &c (a very Jordan Peterson formulation).

However, given that she is my favourite writer, and given that i think she's doing something substantially interesting and exciting enough to want her to do more of it, or if that's a bit Misery-ish, do more of it in more comfort and security, I'm willing to feel the occasional twinge of exasperation and have a bit of a think about what might be possible.

But that isn't in itself a solution. I did come up with some very scrappy thoughts, which I cobbled together in conversation with the person trying to co-ordinate this.

All my ideas are bad and at best not very likely to be successful. At worse they would be time-consuming and extremely unsuccessful. All of them would require people (not Helen) to work for free, and do that reliably and probably fairly intensively at times.

  • Beef up the PayPal donation button and encouragement on her existing blog page. Inevitably this might mean she has to post a bit more on her blog, which has been static. It might at least generate a bit more money.
  • A crowdfunding community, with a funding drive that takes place annually. This would – sorry, this might provide a lump sum which would be beneficial. It would not be tied to any particular work in progress. Absolutely no expectations of communication or advance anything. It would need a page, a place for community focus and comment, and someone to administrate the drive. A facebook page is the obvious choice, though I don't know anybody who is ever overjoyed to use Facebook. Her blog site might be another option. This seems unlikely to generate much money.
  • A Patreon or something like it, with rewards she felt able to give: autographed books - that's the obvious one isn't it? It's not easy to think of others – a list of prominent funders in the front or back of the book might be one option if the publishers were willing.
  • A subscription model, such as Alexander Pope used for the Odyssey and Iliad. A subscription is raised that guarantees the production and purchase of a limited edition book. I'm not entirely serious as it helps to do this in an aristocratic period with lots of wealthy backers and also if you are very well connected to same wealthy backers. This would have to be modernised, with a second publishing phase with an actual publisher, and it's not clear that a publisher would be very pleased at an earlier edition having been released, albeit 'privately'. It's also not clear that any sort of subscription model would generate enough cash for Helen to live on. On the other hand, self-publishing is much easier than it was, especially digitally.
  • The release of individual advance-copy chapters or segments of works in progress to sponsors. Again, publishers may not be amused by this. Or perhaps the release of material relevant to, or used in construction of, the book, in catalogue form (pictures, reading lists, scraps of notes etc) - would require some work on Helen's part.
yerman did also suggest a podcast as apparently she is a fascinating conversationalist, which I can imagine.

i should also say this problem is more generally obviously applicable. how do you usefully fund people whose work you like in a structurally sustainable enough way for it to have an actually positive effect. Something like Patreon seems to work very well if you have a niche and enthusiastic, and preferable large, fanbase, for instance if you are doing Dr Who fan stuff, but generalists, people working towards smaller audiences, or working on the periphery in some way, will struggle. I know – 'thus it ever was' – and also just chucking people some money is usually the best solution.

anyway, I did think the least I could do was post this on a thread to see whether people have got any ideas. Personally I find it hard to see how any of them can work really, and frankly, I'd be sceptical that even if HdW *did* put a load of effort into a Patreon type approach, that it would have a reward usefully proportionate to the effort.

i'm not really trying to be captain save a helen, there are many worthy, worthier causes, or people closer to home who could do with such effort i know. part of it is also having a bit of a pragmatic think about the economics of writing in the digital age, and artistic creation more generally.

Fizzles, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:42 (five years ago) link

Promising anything "extra" in one of these is a great way to get bogged down in commitments that may cost more than they bring in and distract one from one's actual objective. (Cf. any number of examples.) On the other hand there's maybe not much of an audience if you promise nothing at all. I think better than the "buy me a coffee" model for Helen DeWitt would be a more explicit "let's raise $35,000/yr for Helen DeWitt" framework with progress bars and such that explicitly comes with no "backer reward" other than the assurance that HdW is continuing to work on what she wants to work on.

Though, I emailed her upon reading her author's note and what she said to me was that her biggest obstacle is really finding a publisher who's able and willing to publish her weirder work correctly, and also market the book, rather than (necessarily) get volunteers involved to like do prepress technical work for her pro bono, which is what I thought she was looking for. Even New Directions' Last Samurai had errors. I have done a lot of futzing around with TeX and desktop publishing but I've never Made A Book and I'm probably no better at selling than Helen DeWitt.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:24 (five years ago) link

right, totally agree. it does strike me she has a rather fractious relationship with publishers (this much could be deduced alone from her writing tbh). and of course having a good relationship with your publishers is usually a good thing.

I don't think she necessarily knows what would be most helpful, and possibly she's thinking there may be solutions that are in fact not really very viable, the actual solutions just having the problem that they're not very desirable.

Fizzles, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:32 (five years ago) link

I'd say the ideal solution is Full Communism but some people will be difficult to work with even under Full Communism

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:33 (five years ago) link

it can't hurt surely.

Fizzles, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:36 (five years ago) link

I want to get that book she cowrote and self-published as a PDF a few years ago, and which now seems to be unavailable from her site. The fact HdW follows me on Twitter is one of my rare achievments.

Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:56 (five years ago) link

she didn't seem to feel that had 'worked' apparently, and felt the collaborative aspect of it wasn't fully understood, which made her reluctant to make it available. did seem to imply it might be out again *at some point* when she'd published a few more things.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 10 October 2018 05:45 (five years ago) link

If that's Your Name Here you're referring to, anyway.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 10 October 2018 05:46 (five years ago) link

That's the one, thanks.

Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 20:43 (five years ago) link

four weeks pass...

Your Name Here was contracted to Noemi Press for a very long time, which is why she took it off her website. I haven't seen where she said that it hadn't 'worked'. Did she make those comments while it was stuck in contract hell?

I think Noemi no longer has the rights to it but I'm not sure where it goes from here.

I haven't re-read it in a few years but loved it at the time - it seemed very much like the next step after The Last Samurai. Messier, to be certain, and even less of a traditional story, but filled with a lot of brilliance and excellent and funny and sad writing.

Most of what she's written since has been much more controlled in its voice, imo.

Anyway, I bought it back when it was self-published, and I'm not certain what the legalities are about sharing it privately, but when Last Samurai was out-of-print, HdW's position was that people who bought used copies could donate to her the equivalent of royalties that she would have gotten if it was new, etc.

no longer in MTL (Alex in Montreal), Thursday, 8 November 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link

two weeks pass...

your favourite wayward dilettante has begun the last samurai. so far so delirious

imago, Friday, 23 November 2018 22:02 (five years ago) link

✔️

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Saturday, 24 November 2018 00:40 (five years ago) link

as the person who actually started this thread I have to say that i finished it at least six months after the schedule I'd set.

brokenshire (jed_), Saturday, 24 November 2018 01:09 (five years ago) link

finished the book, that is. i could finish this thread in way less than six months.

brokenshire (jed_), Saturday, 24 November 2018 01:10 (five years ago) link

Gets off at Farringdon - how like a man

this is some exquisite deep-London humour. i cackled

imago, Monday, 3 December 2018 10:49 (five years ago) link

big takeaway from the first 100 pages: poor Sybilla being the world's best tutor before the noughties tuition boom, she'd have definitely been able to afford ice-cream

imago, Monday, 3 December 2018 11:34 (five years ago) link

holy fuck the yamamoto chapter

imago, Monday, 3 December 2018 13:40 (five years ago) link

i know right

na (NA), Monday, 3 December 2018 15:59 (five years ago) link

trying think of a more bravura, high-art, firework-laden passage of writing I've read recently; drawing a blank

and to think there's probably more to come

imago, Monday, 3 December 2018 21:21 (five years ago) link

Maybe I should just give up on all the books I’ve been starting lately and just read this again.

JoeStork, Monday, 3 December 2018 21:35 (five years ago) link

most amusingly, that chapter is based on a fictional Sunday Times interview that in reality would have had to span half the paper and been the best thing any print journal has ever contained

helen just has higher standards for everyone I guess

imago, Monday, 3 December 2018 21:38 (five years ago) link

That’s pretty much it yeah

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Monday, 3 December 2018 21:52 (five years ago) link

She doesn't lack for astonishing bravura setpieces does she?

While the HC/RD bit (which I haven't even finished yet) is obviously some sort of literary pinnacle, I do feel I should observe that the best bit of Pynchon's Mason & Dixon, which came out only a few years before, was also a long and dazzlingly fabulistic reported narrative about a couple of scholars (astronomers rather than philologists) involving impromptu flying devices in China and some complex and ambiguous moral lesson. I know I shouldn't compare everything to Pynchon but

imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:51 (five years ago) link

Also of COURSE I should have anticipated L's banter with S once he turned 11. Delightful :D

imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 20:52 (five years ago) link

ah man this gets intense

final chapter is perfect, cheers-to-the-rafters stuff. i cried a bit

imago, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:10 (five years ago) link

when Tom Cruise presents the Emperor with Katsumoto's sword? ;_;

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:17 (five years ago) link

holy fuck the yamamoto chapter

― imago, Monday, December 3, 2018 6:40 AM (two weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

almost halfway through, pretty sure this is the best book i've ever read that's not the magic mountain

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link

part of it is that it kind of feels like a great work of criticism on top of being a novel, so of course i'm extremely taken with it

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 15:55 (five years ago) link

I should reread sometime next year, especially if a certain career move comes through.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 16:26 (five years ago) link

happy to hear you're enjoying the book, Brad :)

flopson, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 21:26 (five years ago) link

a certain career move

Samurai?

jmm, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 21:28 (five years ago) link

maybe!

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 21:29 (five years ago) link

i think i would have had more success in turning people onto this if she hadn't named it The Last Samurai

flopson, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 21:29 (five years ago) link

she didn't, she named it "The Seven Samurai"

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:02 (five years ago) link

should have named it Tetrakaidecapod tbah

imago, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:05 (five years ago) link

me: you should read this book The Last Samurai
them: lol like the Tom Cruise movie
me: no it's this really cool book about a child prodigy and his mo-
them: yeah yeah sure i'll check it out *never reads it*

flopson, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:11 (five years ago) link

of all the child prodigies born in london in early 1987, ludo is probably my favourite. he didn't end up wasting his life chatting shit about indie on the internet. at least, so we hope

actually of course he didn't, he wasn't coddled and then ruined by private school

imago, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:18 (five years ago) link

imago :( it's ok, Ludo's fictional and anyway the default trajectory for a gifted kid is to grow up into an average adult.

that said even if you aren't a child prodigy I think one of the things I took away from reading this is that it's always possible to just sit down and do something hard that you want to do, even if nobody gives a shit. Like, not for nothing did you upload your novel to createspace. The challenge is finding the time when you have to survive under capitalism but you can still make gestures at the ineffable yknow

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:27 (five years ago) link

:)

the novel definitely gave me strength more than it made me wonder what could have been!

imago, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:28 (five years ago) link

This is a bit of a basic bitch question about this book, BUT, I loved the introduction (10 pages or so) then immediately struggled with the first chapter and the new narrator, and gave up. Does it stay that full-on for the whole book?

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:34 (five years ago) link

nearly every other chapter is a dramatic shift in tone/style but it never returns to the style of the prologue

flopson, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 22:57 (five years ago) link

had maybe 1 or 2 stylistic misgivings over the first ~70 pages but they all resolve with extreme suddenness and the rest of the book is nothing short of gripping

imago, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 23:17 (five years ago) link

silby otm

one of the great things about this book is that it makes "genius" a completely unintimidating inconvenient mundane thing like everything else in life

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:13 (five years ago) link

This is a bit of a basic bitch question about this book, BUT, I loved the introduction (10 pages or so) then immediately struggled with the first chapter and the new narrator, and gave up. Does it stay that full-on for the whole book?

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, December 18, 2018 3:34 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sibylla's narrating the prologue, so i don't understand your question

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:14 (five years ago) link

nearly every other chapter is a dramatic shift in tone/style but it never returns to the style of the prologue

― flopson, Tuesday, December 18, 2018 3:57 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i also disagree with this, sibylla's whole thing with liberace is as much of a yarn as the prologue

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:15 (five years ago) link

agree to disagree. i got like, mythical vibes from the prologue

flopson, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:26 (five years ago) link

don't know what a yarn means, but there are many parts of the book i would describe as 'yarns' yet not similar

flopson, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:27 (five years ago) link

i guess i don’t get it when the vibe of the prologue continues in the first chapter when sybilla picks up the thread with her father and her mother, it’s basically the same style

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 03:42 (five years ago) link


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