Post a controversial music opinion

I don't really know what people mean by 'ambient music' tbh.

imo ambient is stuff like elaine radigue, aphex twin SAW, lappetites (though some borders on noise), stars of the lid, keith fullerton whitman

usually softer than noise and less abrasive

something a stoned guy does in an afternoon with a polysynth and some guitar pedals
Why buy 180g vinyl pressings of near-static drones that all sound identical?
the synthesizer scraps of every boutique cassette label

These are not genuine attempts at actually engaging with music or the people who listen to it.

Maybe this is my controversial opinion, but I don't understand why proper ambient lovers would even buy that kind of music on vinyl, let alone cassette? Ambient is all about sound, so the props and cracks of vinyl, or the distortions and general crappy sound you get with cassettes seem pretty antithetical to appreciating that kind of music... Plus having to change sides every 20 to 30 minutes totally kills the immersion. Most ambient music should be listened in digital formats.

The Aphex Twin is where I started having problems with the definition of ambient music, because hardly anything he described as ambient fitted with what I thought ambient music was.

ArtistsÉliane Radigue couldn't even be properly appreciated on record before the digital era, because her best pieces are pauseless 60+ minute drones.

"Artists like..."

the noises of your body are part of this record tuomas, this has been known for literally 50 years

The Aphex Twin is where I started having problems with the definition of ambient music, because hardly anything he described as ambient fitted with what I thought ambient music was.

Selected Ambient Works II is pretty much his only full-length ambient work, no? The first SAW album is not ambient despite having the word in its title.

Tuomas, one of the most well known ambient projects of past 20 yrs or so is primarily about the effect an imperfect format can have on the playback of the music it stores

virtuoso post

however Tuomas's post could have been done by my kid

I have never thought of Disintegration Loops as "ambient music" more like found sound/field recording or just drone

Tuomas, one of the most well known ambient projects of past 20 yrs or so is primarily about the effect an imperfect format can have on the playback of the music it stores

That's a completely different thing if the producer's intent is to interrogate sound in such a way. The intent of most long-form ambient pieces is to create solid sound states, so breaking them into separate pieces would break the effect.

really great posts by Tuomas

I used to be more liberal about these things when I was younger, but the more I listen to ambient, the more I feel that for it to exist as a thing in itself, it can't be just "music to chill out to". For example, albums with any emphasis on beats rarely feel like proper ambient to me. Ambient is about sounds bleeding to each other, continuous flows, non-discrete pulses. Your typical drum machine beat is too distinct, calls too much attention to itself. Sometimes it's possible to make the beat part of the overall flow, as on those Gas albums, but there aren't so many artists who can pull that off. The "ambient" on many early 90s albums, such as those by Aphex Twin or Pete Namlook or Biosphere is more techno or trance with ambient elements, sequenced in a way that breaks the solidness of the sound. (Though of course they've all done proper ambient too.)

And this doesn't just apply to beats but to any discrete instruments. Max Richter's Sleep is excellent chill-out music, but it isn't ambient, cos you can hear each violin, cello, piano, you can visualise the people playing them. Individual sounds, instruments, players calling your attention. Voigt samples classical music on the Gas albums, but in a way that any such distinctiveness is immersed in the totality, becoming ambient.

I used to be more liberal about these things when I was younger, but the more I listen to ambient, the more I feel that for it to exist as a thing in itself, it can't be just "music to chill out to". For example, albums with any emphasis on beats rarely feel like proper ambient to me. Ambient is about sounds bleeding to each other, continuous flows, non-discrete pulses. Your typical drum machine beat is too distinct, calls too much attention to itself. Sometimes it's possible to make the beat part of the overall flow, as on those Gas albums, but there aren't so many artists who can pull that off. The "ambient" on many early 90s albums, such as those by Aphex Twin or Pete Namlook or Biosphere is more techno or trance with ambient elements, sequenced in a way that breaks the solidness of the sound. (Though of course they've all done proper ambient too.)

Agree with this - a few months ago I profiled Carbon Based Lifeforms and when I was listening to their music, most of which is heavily beat-driven, I kept thinking "how is this ambient? I can't not pay attention to it, which seems like a crucial factor."

post your uncool conservative ideas here

is about sounds bleeding to each other

I'm always surprised I don't have an ambient album that's just forest sounds, and every few minutes someone hits a piano key with a lot of sustain. I know it exists, somewhere.

The "ambient" on many early 90s albums, such as those by Aphex Twin or Pete Namlook or Biosphere is more techno or trance with ambient elements

OTM

yeah I'm not sure what "ambient" refers to most of the time. I always think of those plinky-plonky Eno albums. SAWII feels like a pure ambient album, SAW85-92 does not. nor does anything by The Orb really. they're ambient-adjacent but not ambient in the sense that I assume one talks about ambient when they say, "why would you own more than five of these albums"

if The Disintegration Loops aren’t ambient music than I don’t know what is

ambient music knows it doesn't exist

Trap is a very unimaginative and played out hip-hop variant

Eno defines ambient music as "music to calm, to create a space to think... music that invites non-engagement, but is still interesting when engaged with". Satie's original idea behind "musique d’ameublement" (furniture music) was that the music was itself NOT to be engaged with at all-- music that was to create a mood, but to be ignored. The common element between the two ideas is "the capacity for this music to be ignored", which I think is important.

"The Disintegration Loops" is so often cited as a masterpiece of "ambient" music but I don't think so at all. It's (excellent) avant-garde minimalism. It is too rich-in-content for it to function as ambient music, too repetitious to be anything but demanding of one's attention. It invites inspection. Its thesis is not anything Eno or Satie described, but has to do with extra-musical ideas of degradation-of-media (and hagiography of 9/11).

Ironically I think that the only thing about "The Disintegration Loops" that is a "bad decision" on the part of the composer was the application of reverb across the entire result of the experiment. Cheapens it, but anyway

That’s more of an insightful music opinion than a controversial one.

Will listen to the disintegration loops some time this week

You mean I was able to convince you that the oft-cited #2 Best Ambient Album Of All Time was not actually ambient music in 100-words-or-less? For that I get a biscuit I guess

I didn’t see it was part of a larger conversation — i have a bad habit of just reading the most recent posts

I get the Eno/Satie definition but I'm usually OK with using "ambient" to just mean "non-dancefloor-oriented electronic music", given that i) we need a term for that and ii) pretty much all music is used as 'furniture' almost anywhere you go in the present day, pop music most of all.

I really don't care what anyone labels any music, but personally yeah I agree that music with "beats" is a bridge too far. GAS being the exception that proves the rule? idk. Stuff can have rhythm/percussion and still strike me as ambient.

If it has a kick drum, it is not ambient. If Boards of Canada are Ambient, so is The Cure.

Froggy, The Orb - COW is probably their most Ambient release. That and the one with that talentless fuckface from Pink Floyd.

lol i got into an argument with my coworker about 'what is ambient' the other day and it's like everyone somehow recreated a transcript itt

dunno, i think xtal is ambient...the beats are so soft to me, but everyone hears music differently

ambient definitely is not just something to chill out to as you said tuomas - it is also prime come down music and a life saver when shit gets rough, it is far from background music

i think as long as music is functional it is worth something, if that makes sense

lock thread

Would anyone be up for starting a new What Is Ambient board? It could be where we put all discussions about what is/isn't Ambient.

and every post can be safely ignored

If it has a kick drum, it is not ambient. If Boards of Canada are Ambient, so is The Cure.

I think that's fair and I would agree with it in a very general "rule of thumb" kind of way, with the addendum that it's a flexible definition.

After reading the developments here the last few days, I think my controversial opinion would be that I like to make (and listen to) ambient / drone music and I see a lot of possibilities in it, but I would agree that roughly 75%-90% of stuff being made by "DIY" ambient folks is pretty bad and, for the majority, just feels like somebody playing the same major / major / minor / major chords as a million other pop songs. Instead of doing something different, those folks seem to have an unearned sense of profundity because they play slow with a lot of delay and reverb; almost like they're hiding their lack of good ideas behind a wash of superficially "pleasant" sounds.

Would love an ambient discussion board.

it's more the snare drum that un-ambients something isn't it tho? Can think of a few throbbing kick drums in, say, Gas tracks that I consider ambient, but can't think of any with a prominent snare...

ah a good old fashioned genre-definition fight. it's like the old days.

I just so happen to be listening to Global Communication's 76:14 right now (an old favorite that I am pleased to report holds up), and I'm sure a lot of people would consider this ambient, but if we're using Satie's definition, it's not anywhere close. On the contrary, it is engaging in ways many more traditional (read; rock) albums could never hope to be. If this is ambient, so is Laughing Stock.

it's more the snare drum that un-ambients something isn't it tho? Can think of a few throbbing kick drums in, say, Gas tracks that I consider ambient, but can't think of any with a prominent snare...

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, October 3, 2018 1:37 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

kick drum can be one of the most easy to tune out sounds imaginable in isolation and is completely congruent with ambient for me

ambient is no snares obv

All music is ambient

Unless you’re listening with headphones on, maybe

how do you hear it though

would you people call rhys chatham ambient

the 40 guitar thing was pretty sublime and droning

flopson
Posted: October 3, 2018 at 3:37:43 PM
ambient is no snares obv

Nephew,

Please stop.

Yours,

Papa Infinity

drone and ambient overlap a lot but drone isn't necessarily ambient and chatham seems of a different family to me

A Holy Grail was performed with four hundred guitars. And yeah, it can be ambient.