Let's talk about Vice Magazine

Nobody uses gonzo because gonzo includes risk, ie. the distinct possibility of getting shot or surprised by one's surroundings. Edgy style magazines are not really edgy - any fule knos they're too attuned to what's going on not to recognise the need to succeed commercially. Such recognition includes making others take all the risk. You can then write about the addict/suicide/Other with gusto and go home to your six cats and meals for one, while planning what to do with that big paycheque and feeling cool because you're on a guestlist.

so Vice /= gonzo, capische? I'm just wondering if/how much they pay their writers. Give me that info and I'll be able to infer loads.

Let's say I find the name 'Sterling' offensive. (Maybe I'm rabidly pro-Euro and anti-sterling. Whatever twisted reason.) I find utterance of the name 'Sterling' offensive in nearly all contexts. And those where I'm not offended (i.e. where some guy chooses to call himself Sterling) I still think using that name is hideously misguided and counterproductive.

I don't care what you think, even if you happen to be called Sterling and to use that name every day. To me it's offensive, and I think you're wrong to use it. You're letting us all down, and you're hurting yourself.

temporarily ignoring any concerns regarding vice's own latent bigotry, try this on instead. if you can acknowledge that meanings of words shift from user to user on a per-play basis, then surely you can acknowledge the possibility that vice's 're-definition' of certain words may not READ that way to a large segment of its readership. who (and, i know, it's rather dull and ho-hum) have the gall to hear "faggot" (hatred) as "faggot" (hateful) and not "faggot" ("as in 'art fag' - that's what i call my bf too!").

you're coming from a privileged perspective that is NOT in keeping with regular/vice-reading north america. for fuck's sake, spend some time on their message board. what do you think these people would say about a momus record?

really, it's all so arrogant to assume that your forward-thinking 'art fag' friends see the way out, because hey, they've been calling each other fags at dinner parties and sushi stops for years, and no problem there.

simple question: would you walk into a room full of black people and call them niggers?

The obverse question is, would Sterling or anyone else walk into a room and tell them to *stop* using the word 'nigger'? That's what he seems to be saying. And many people on this thread want to gatecrash the Vice party and tell them they can't use certain words in certain ways to their friends, amongst themselves.

a) To use, yourself, the (formerly pejorative) word they're using to each other.

b) To tell them to stop using the (formerly pejorative) word they're using to each other.

Which is the better option? I answered your question, now please answer mine.

It's a MAGAZINE. Although it's a ploy of advertising-sales types at magazines to sell titles as an 'exclusive' party 'everyone' (in its demographic) is invited to. Which contradicts, of course.

While I don't presume to tell people what descriptive slang terms to use, I'm generally not down with people who feel the need to use them. I'm also not down with the Inclusive Language Posse either as I hate being told what to say by some unimaginative local-government type.
Also, the *second* certain terms start crossing over, you can bet the people who started it off will get bored and find a new term so as to make the people who've just picked up the slang LESS COOL.

No, no, no, Mark P set the terms of this conundrum and it was very simple: "Would you walk into a room full of black people and call them niggers?" And I'm saying that if you just have the option to

a) go along with their revaluation of the word or

b) question it

which would be the better thing to do?

(must dash...i'm in my living room and now i have to go to my kitchen.)

So who's going to walk into Art Fag Mondays and tell DJ Amy 'I'm not, um, 'gay' myself, but I really think you should change the name of this place. It's degrading!'

which words? and how? why? when? with who in mind? while keeping a cautious eye out for which elements? oh, fuck it, i'd rather lick matted menses out of dyke pubes while getting sucked off at the jewboy afro hair day at the fag salon than think about this gay shit, but that's okay, everyone knows the vice "scene" includes every gay/black/jewish/left-leaning person living at present.

how's this, Momus: "I'm gay myself, and I really think you should change the name of this place. It's degrading!" ?

Better not to use the word at all than throw one more coal onto the fires of pent up rage and pain of the Ivan Julians of the world (cf. aforementioned bangs piece where he describes hearing it like shrapnel lodging in his stomach).

This doesn't mean that I am going to write letters to Vice complaining. I find them and what they pander to repellent, but fine.

Momus you're a dope half the time because you automatically equate moral disapproval with censorship and shock value with merit.

Nabiso - are you saying adults should be judged by the same standards as 8 year olds then?

why oh why am I having the sudden urge to play (LOUD) You'll Dance To Anything by the Dead Milkmen?

This reminds me of Nitsuh's comments on the 'Is Bush An Idiot' thread. He wanted the people who voted Nader to outline their longterm vision for the positive outcome a Nader vote might bring. And he got frustrated because nobody seemed even to have thought in those terms.

Here I'm actually being somewhat Naderite, in a sense, and saying that I believe the word 'fag' can be totally revalued *for the whole community* within a few short years, and that this victory, which I believe is both important and inevitable, is worth the short-term risk (of Democrats losing votes, in the Nader case, or of a peceived -- but illusory -- temporary *increase* in homophobia, in this case).

I refuse to pick one of Momus's hypothetical scenarios because they're fucking stupid. I freely invite Momus to walk into a room filled with my relatives or my wife's relatives and start throwing the word "nigger" around because he desperately needs the beatdown.

Sterling's name has never been more appropriate

Why should it? What's so great about that word?

Jesus, Momus, you can't claim both that the usage is for the scene, and is being carefully handled by licensed word-smiths, AND it's for the community (which I'm assuming is at least the 90% of the US outside NY), where it will bring great healing. Make your mind up.

also, since when did stockholm syndrome redeem a word?