Norm Macdonald Returns to Television!

His old man conservatism is disappointing but it’s always been apparent. The “I don’t care or know anything about politics” line was never totally convincing.

If there's conservatism underneath, he knows that he can't win with it. I genuinely don't think he's trying to take a counter position to court some untapped conservative comedy-loving audience. he's more like the ilxor on the irrationally angry thread, annoyed that another task has been added to his work that was never in the job description. but he also knows that he'll fail if forced to perform this task. so he overstates some opinions on comedy to justify a relative silence. still, from the vulture interview (and I feel like he's said this before):

I always bristle when people say, “The comedian is the modern-day philosopher.” There are modern-day philosophers.

(you'd have to have some base faith that the 'people' are not horrible, though)

Yeah, I think that’s mostly OTM. Things are p. heavy right now and I’m averse to this hard binary we’re are falling into. Obviously don’t see him as an active agent of conservatism, but still moments arise that are cringey.

I need to read that interview.

Ugh, “cringey” is an understatement though. Someone mentioned his interview on the Tom Green show here and I listened to it today at work. He was talking about when he was on The View and said something like “who’s that fat BLACK lady on the show” in a way you couldn’t really paper over. I think dude legit harbors contemptuous views about women and minorities in general.

Maybe I should make some sense of this internally before hashing it out on the internet.

there were definitely some very strange episodes of his podcast like that. they also felt pretty self-destructive or performative, though.

I'm not saying Norm should just get a pass for everything, but for me at least I don't feel as critical of Norm because he comes across as a mostly compassionate and sensitive human being, in spite of probably having political opinions I'm not ok with?

I think his conservatism is more of the sad, pessimistic variety than the virulent/hateful variety.

the interview above did not leave me with that impression

Which one, the View?

Or the Vulture one? What in particular? I mean the way he discusses trans people is maybe not exactly up to date, but it seems well-meaning if fumbly. I'm not saying it's "ok," I just think this ok/not-ok binary the internet has created is a bit heavy handed sometimes.

that's fair

We had two trans family friends when I was growing up and one of my friends is now stepfather to a trans kid, but pronoun issues were barely on my radar until maybe 5 years ago, and I'm online a lot. When I was a kid it was still totally commonplace for mainstream movies and shows to be hostile to trans people for comic relief, to the point that it never even occurred to me that there was something wrong with it. I think people who seem like they are trying deserve a little slack if they haven't fully kept up, especially older people.

*when I was growing up = came out as trans when I was in high school, before that I don't think I knew anyone trans

Can’t justify his shitty takes or why he’s one that I find myself giving more of a pass to than others. Guess because he feels like his own unique thing operating in his own mental sphere. For me feels related to David Lynch’s recent, walked-back Trump comments.

yeah this is otm

i do think that the cruelty and wrongheadness are intrinsic part of NM's comedy. i mean, they are a bad part of his interviews, but essential to the standup

Lynch was totally quoted out of context

And he did not walk them back so much as he clarified them

I'm not saying Norm should just get a pass for everything, but for me at least I don't feel as critical of Norm because he comes across as a mostly compassionate and sensitive human being, in spite of probably having political opinions I'm not ok with?

This is how I feel-- he might not always be progressive but he's never ever hawkish

Yeah.

Vulture piece is v. good. Generally been fascinated by his interviews where he’s not, you know, “performing”. Thought this one in particular pulled out thoughtful responses. Interviewer did an impressive job of addressing issues without being scolding or adversarial, which will kill things right in their tracks. Tact worth noting.

I think it's worth noting that when he says sex is "shameful," in context he is saying that society and media continue to treat it as shameful.

Yeah, generally sounds like when pressed on something that’s wtf on the face of it he does a good job of clarifying and making it reasonable.

Though Norm actually thinking sex is a shameful, base human activity would not surprise me.

His love of classic Russian Lit. and the fact that he brings up God a lot (in the more abstract, non-dogmatic sense) is interesting to me. If only because I went through that too when I read those books and discovered Tarkovsky and Bresson movies and stuff. Still with me and I get it.

Norm strikes me as the kind of guy who will just about fuck with anyone well past the point of embarrassment to get to helpless laughter at the other end, but genuinely doesn't want to cause anyone any other kind of pain. He was very near tears on the View (compare that visit and his last Letterman appearance with any other live appearance). I'll drop him like a hot potato if stories of abusive *actions* ever come out, but I'm not going to stop watching the comedy of a bullshit artist for saying bullshit. (Yes, I am drawing a line between words and actions and yes I know that words can be abuse or the largest part of a course of abusive action. This isn't that.)

Yeah I p much agree with that. I mean unless the words are deliberately advocating virulent racism or something along those lines. I don't want to live in a world where we just drop people for a boneheaded joke where the irony wasn't well-considered. And I do feel like there's a bit of an outrage industry in the clickbait and twitter world now, with people jumping at the chance to condemn these things more loudly than the next, and Norm looking genuinely dismayed on the View and saying stuff like "I don't want my friend to kill herself" is a good reminder of how inhuman it starts to become.

where yall been the past decade or why norm so special vs literally anyone else ever

I got constant shit and nearly got banned permanently from this here site when I used to rail against dumb destructive absolutist application of progressive ideas, as you know. Norm's kind of special and almost brought me out of "THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR METAPHORIC AGONY AND REAL AGONY" retirement because he is an artist who works in bullshit. He's loved by dumb misogynist racist dudes into "trolling", but he's quite open about trying to do a certain kind of comedy better or differently than anyone has before and part of it is constantly playing with the ideas of smart v. dumb, real v. fake. He genuinely says dumb stuff about politics and culture a fair amount, but it's a tiny part of what makes him funny and worth watching for me.

Judge Judy interview was super beautiful

Y’all so god damn pc. Does it make you laugh ? If not find something else.

Honestly it’s boring as fuck

True question; why analyze everything to death?

Cuz it’s fun

Judging from some of the internet comments, the alt right people who think Norm is somehow "one of them" are remarkably humorless.

Does it make you laugh ? If not find something else.

Norm doesn't make me laugh, because I never see him practicing his comedy, other than some very stupid unfunny KFC commercials he did in the past couple of years. But when someone is quoted on ILX making very ignorant and insensitive comments about very serious issues, it doesn't matter much whether they are funny at other times. Ignorant or insensitive comments aren't ignorant or insensitive because they are not "pc", but because the person making them is ignorant or insensitive. It is just that simple.

Old me would have pointed out the weirdness of declaring Norm's never having seen Nannette yet deigning to criticize it anyway a clear sign of unforgivable insensitive sexist arrogance on the one hand while proudly declaring complete ignorance of anything Norm has done in the last 20 years "but fuck him anyway, he and I know what he was doing" as perhaps not the best of of looks.

The first sentence made me laugh and I like the challops that follows:

When I was a kid, if I’d heard Red Skelton talking about the government I would’ve thought, This is fucking weird. To me, it hurts the comedy any time anything real creeps into it. I know people have different thoughts. I keep hearing how great Lenny Bruce and Bill Hicks and Mort Sahl are. People have their own taste, but to me, all three of those people are just shit. They’re not comedians in my mind.

Oh yeah I agree with him about Lenny Bruce fwiw. Maybe there was something that felt salient about him at the time that just doesn't age well, but I never actually enjoyed Lenny Bruce. In a way I think he may have been just the inverse of today's PC comic -- edgy and challenging but not actually that good at just making you laugh?

Bill Hicks, too. I bought a couple of his CDs b/c certain people I knew swore by him. They weren't terrible but my main thought was "I really haven't laughed for a long time, wtf is going on here"

I think Norm's otm when it comes to the comedian needing to believe he's the smartest guy in the room. I've seen Aziz and Louie live and they were both pretty good but it definitely nags at you the way they try to do these long, tortured philosophical routines and then also try to sell dumb jokes that don't really work because the rest of the show is on a different level. With Norm you don't really have that problem. The fact that Norm's kind of a shit philosopher and has underdeveloped political views is what makes the comedy work. In that Vulture interview you can tell he's got some sort of belief system but he essentially acknowledges that it doesn't really hold up to any real scrutiny.

Hicks and Bruce I find very hard to take outside their historical relevance, but I laughed a fair amount listening to this Mort Sahl record I found.

Before 1962 or so, Bruce is very funny. Perhaps not "consistently," but few are.

definitely agree about Bill Hicks

hicks good to read, terrible to listen to or watch imo

hicks good to read, terrible to listen to or watch imo

This is maybe 80% of all standup/sketch comedy for me

Otm

How much does a comedian need to be political, ask that to you fine folks. I like escapism at times cuz the world is tough but is that a pre req

in this particular moment it seems fairly important

I used to listen to a lot of stand-up from like 2002-2004, back then it was kinda weird when stand-up sets didn't mention 9/11 in some way. I know Norm is bemoaning late night hosts having to do a lot of anti-Trump political comedy now, but what else are you supposed to be talking about right now? Trump has been the biggest news story in the country every single day for the last 3 years.

Fair

I know Norm is bemoaning late night hosts having to do a lot of anti-Trump political comedy now, but what else are you supposed to be talking about right now? Trump has been the biggest news story in the country every single day for the last 3 years.

Comedians can comment on literally any aspect of human existence. Why are they obligated to comment on the news, is the question, and "they just are" is not really a helpful answer.

i love norm, but dismissing mort sahl as "not really a comedian" is risibly ignorant -- sahl's style was not at all similar to hicks or later bruce, and norm throwing him in the list makes me think he's either ever never listened to him or just dislikes political comedy that he doesn't agree with

I think the real issue is that we live in an era with an unprecedented volume of commentary on the president -- twitter, facebook, 24 hour cable news, every level of news and blogsite, etc., and when it comes to Trump, EVERYONE has a take, something "funny" to say, etc. So it's kind of unreasonable to expect a comedian to just have even more to say about such an overtrodden subject just because it happens to be "important."

disagree even with that.

it simply isnt a necessary part of the brief

xxp tbf to Norm, he wouldn't be the first to throw Sahl and Bruce together. Sahl, Bruce, Hicks at least all pieces of Maronicana.