New Apple Lust Objects

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I think it is good that Apple is simplifying its product line. Now the only missing piece (other than servers, I guess?) are the Mactel desktops!

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 16:39 (seventeen years ago) link

And a thin and light pro laptop made of rubidium.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link

rubadubdubium

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link

I kind of want a new computer but realise, coming back to Tom's point, that the only things I will be able to do that I can't do now are burn DVDs and stream audio to my stero (Airport Express needs Airport Extreme, which my eMac can't cope with).

Streaming video to my TV would be v.nice, actually. Is that what Front Row can do, or is that just to monitors?

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Why won't it run Aperture?

caek (caek), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:33 (seventeen years ago) link

If it can't actually run Aperture, it is because the Integrated Intel Graphics Adaptor sucks.

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm willing to bet it would run Aperture - just not terribly well. Apple tends to overstate minimum requirements (hoping you'll go ahead and buy the MacBook Pro).

Didn't Apple already fire/reassign most of the Aperture staff? Lightroom will be better, and probably cost the same whenever the CS3 suite comes out.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link

In what way is Aperture/Lightroom a different type of product to Photoshop?

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:44 (seventeen years ago) link

photoshop is an editing program whereas AP/LR is an organization/editing program whose usefulness is directly propotional to the amount of RAW shooting you do.

Jimmy Mod is a super idol of The MARS SPIRIT (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Photoshop: Editing=technical wizardyr; AP/LR: DOES THIS PICTURE SUCK OR NOT=EDITING

Jimmy Mod is a super idol of The MARS SPIRIT (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:48 (seventeen years ago) link

More streamlined RAW input/output (Aperture never modifies the original file itself, every action is saved to a separate file, kinda like iTunes MP3 information), some fancy graphics stuff for grouping shots, fewer image-editing controls (mostly color balance, sharpening - the tools most photographers use PS for anyway).

Very useful if you're a wedding photographer or photojournalist and need to download and view 500 images at once.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Why don't you go read the webpages for said products, Alba? ;)

milo:

Look at the required GFX cards here. http://www.apple.com/aperture/specs.html

And look the card here http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

It won't run Aperture because Aperture specifically checks what mac it's running on and quits out if it's not a very expensive one.

... and because that intel graphics chip is utter shit. It doesn't even have a full OpenGL implementation ... and OS X's display runs on OpenGL. So one of those two cores will be busy doing graphics work instead of important stuff. Grr.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

the GFX card issue came up before with other products (and maybe when Aperture debuted, specifically) - Apple says 'it won't work,' but really it will, it just won't do everything (and sometimes that most means really useless features like the wavy graphics you get with widgets - an OS X feature I haven't used once since the day I installed whatever we're on - Tiger?)

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Stet, I would imagine that the grpahics chip is only incapable of doing HW accelerated CoreImage effects which will only affect performance in apps that need it... like Aperture

xpost! Listen, if you're a "professional" who "needs" aperture, why are you buying the MacBook meant for college freshmen and moms?

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Because it's pretty difficult to haul around a desktop to photoshoots?

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:56 (seventeen years ago) link

But, like, the point everyone here is making is that apparently no one on all of ILX is planning on buying a MacBook so, yeah, don't worry about the "professionals"?

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Why is it like an extra $200 if you want your Mac shit in black btw?

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks. I did look at the websites, Jon, but they assumed I knew what the products were for. And the wikipedia entries said vague things like "designed to assist professional photographers in post-production work". The iTunes comparison is helpful.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Because it's pretty difficult to haul around a desktop to photoshoots?

Ally, there are also MacBook Pros (I still hate these names)

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Why is it like an extra $200 if you want your Mac shit in black btw?

Because Apple are price-targetting idiots with more money than style who think black is "cool".

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh I know but some "professionals" are not "rolling in the dough" and are trying to deal with cost issues, etc etc. It basically was just an amazingly retarded question to ask.

xpost black isn't better because it's cool but because it presumably would look about 14x less dirty. Those white things get filthy within a day's use :(

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:02 (seventeen years ago) link

There are a lot of cheap people. And hobbyists who now shoot nothing but RAW digital images, need more control than iPhoto provides and want a better way to do it than going image by image in PS and Camera RAW.

I'd never buy a MacBook Pro - I don't need a laptop often enough to justify the money. Most everything I do is on a desktop, so an iBook makes great sense to take on vacation (or on location, or as a backup) without spending $2500. The lower-budget model should be capable of running Aperture and Final Cut Express and whatever pro/semi-pro programs it might reasonably be called upon to run.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Dirty is cool.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link

My white nano looks much better after six months than any black nano I've seen. The white shows dirt, the black shows every little smudge and scratch you pick up.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:04 (seventeen years ago) link

milo, if you're so cheap, buy a dell!

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:05 (seventeen years ago) link

No, it really sucks for just about everything, Jon. The 3D graphics are non-existent -- and the OpenGL thing is a big drawback -- all the hardware acceleration that Tiger's window manager uses is going to have to be done by the CPU.

Check how the intel graphics mini does against a slower-clocked imac on the games tests here. (Answer: really, really badly. The old mac mini beats it, and that computer is a *dog*)

Also, college freshmen can still shoot in RAW! It's principle, anyway. I mean, you'd think a brand-new 2.0ghz computer could handle a 12mb picture file. But no.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link

If a MacBook could do all these things milo (which are disproptionately needed by professional users for whom the extra money is worth it) then there wouldn't be much to justify the MacBook Pro costing $500 more or whatever. The ranges already overlap in processor speeds, which is pretty amazing.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:08 (seventeen years ago) link

(yes, I know - integrated graphics blah, but that, a nicer case and a bigger screen, hmm. Are MacBooks very cheap or are MacBook Pros overpriced?)

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:09 (seventeen years ago) link

The 3D graphics are non-existent -- and the OpenGL thing is a big drawback -- all the hardware acceleration that Tiger's window manager uses is going to have to be done by the CPU.

UNTRUE. For 3D graphics yes, but the window manager is not going to do anything as stupid as composoting a 2D desktop in software. We've had 2D acceleration for ages!

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link

These people should stop taking so many pictures if they find it so difficult to manage them. In my day, *is pounded and thrown into street*

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Why would I buy a Dell, Jon? I've got a G5 desktop and a 12" iBook that will happily putter along running Photoshop and whatever other programs I want (including, most likely, Lightroom) for the forseeable future.

Some day I will have to buy a MacTel desktop, and I'll need to look for a MacBook to go with it. If that MacBook is crippled to the point where it won't run Apple's own software that I might need it to run, then it's a shitty computer. This isn't even like asking for a MacBook to run a full FCP suite or do some kind of fancy 3D modelling - we're talking about a basic image organizing and editing program.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:18 (seventeen years ago) link

TRUE, actually. Quartz Extreme does the compositing, drawing 2D as 3D OpenGL textures. It's enabled on the intel graphics chips, but because they don't have full OpenGL, it's also done in processor. This is stupid and shit, like you said. But, hey, it's cheap.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Doing something and doing it well should be the dividing line between a consumer line and a 'pro' line.

A year ago you could buy a dual-processor G5 or a single-processor iMac - pro/consumer. They would both do the same things - the iMac wasn't crippled to the point where you couldn't run all but the most basic editing/image/film programs. The iMac was just slower - if you felt that the added speed of use justified your cost, you bought the PowerMac.

This will repeat itself whenever they get around to introducing Mactel desktops, I'm sure.

But here you don't seem to have the option of purchasing a slower, but still useful, MacBook (assuming you're the type of person who uses Aperture - and it's not unlikely that a wedding photographer would have use for a lower-end laptop, but do his or her major editing and work on a desktop) - only a MacBook Pro.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm really pretty sure that Quartz Extreme won't composite the 2D desktop in software.

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, since it's apparently turned on in the intel mac minis, I don't see why not. And it would explain why they're so goddamn slow.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Some stuff will be, but if you're arguing that the entire display is being treated as a "dumb" framebuffer, you're a fucking moron.

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:33 (seventeen years ago) link

No, I'm not saying that. But QE draws *everything on-screen* as 3D OpenGL textures. Which this chip sucks at handling.

Christ, it doesn't even have its own graphics memory. I thought "fast ram" went out with the Amiga.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:35 (seventeen years ago) link

I think it is good that Apple is simplifying its product line. Now the only missing piece (other than servers, I guess?) are the Mactel desktops!

My prediction is that we won't see Mactel desktops until Adobe has announced a definite shipping date for a Intel-compiled version of Photoshop.

My secret prediction/desire is that Apple should just buy Adobe outright.

LOL Thomas (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Adobe's handling of their Mac application build architecture has been SHITE since the OS X transition was announced. They did not even begin to properly invest in moving away from CodeWarrior until they got pwned by the Mactel announcement.

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:49 (seventeen years ago) link

what about Apple selling OS X to Adobe?

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 18:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Jon OTM about Adobe -- although in their defence they say that XCode isn't as good as Codewarrior for large apps yet.

Even if intel Photoshop was out already, Rosetta can't handle cross-arch plugins, so PPC code can't run as a plugin to an intel app. So all the Photoshop plugins will have to be redone as well.

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Everyone is talking like this computer and it's shitty integrated graphics is too slow to run OS X. I am typing this on an iBook G3 700 with 16mb of VRAM running Tiger, which will be four years old this Summer. It's plenty usable. It's so usable that I am in no rush to get the new MacBook, which is what I'm planning to do at some point.

I have no doubt, however, that the new MacBook will be much, much faster. There will be no noticable lag due to drawing to the screen (games notwithstanding). It would be faster if it had dedicated graphics. It would also cost more.

p.s. USEFUL: http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/comparison_chart.html

p.p.s. £130 for 20GB and black plastic? GET TO FUCK.

caek (caek), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:06 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not going to buy another Apple computer until they offer them in sage again.

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:08 (seventeen years ago) link

they say that XCode isn't as good as Codewarrior for large apps yet.

XCode is just an interface to GNU building tools. They are total turds and full of shit. No one would build as big a project as any Adobe app using XCode's built in interface. (hint: Microsoft doesn't use the Visual Studio GUI to compile Windows XP)

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:19 (seventeen years ago) link

If Adobe wasn't so entrenched in their most key markets and I were a major shareholder, I would be PISSED that they are leaving this huge window of opportunity open.

OH WAIT, AFTER EFFECTS IS EFFECTIVELY DEAD THANKS TO FINAL CUT.

JW (ex machina), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Premiere is effectively dead thanks to final cut (and low end AVID), After effects limps on.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually, that's not strictly true there is an awful lot of premiere still out there as it's still that bit cheaper than Avid Xpress Pro or FCP even though both of those make a better deal than premiere, especially Final Cut Studio, but people will just look at the hardwrae requirements and above all the sticker price and pick Premiere, just be thankful Pinnacle is gone.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

So, eh, Jon, how can you think that Xcode is shit and still be cross at Adobe for not switching to it (the only way to get fast intel switchover) already?

stet (stet), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link


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