If an artist is A) not super rich, B) on an indie or self-owned label, and C) his records are available where you live, is there any excuse for downloading them instead of buying them?

john I feel like you've been pushing 'get rich = motivation' more than anyone in this thread!

having health insurance is the new millions of dollars

Would you guys say state-subsidized BBC news is of generally higher caliber than say the profit-motivated US/Murdoch news machine?

I would, but I generally assume everything from the UK that isn't funk- or food-based is better than what you'd find in the UK.

UK infinite loop

well this doesn't go anywhere if we keep talking about what's "great," since we presumably have different ideas of that

It goes to make for a very long thread.

This isn't the worst thing in the world, it's not the fault of anything in particular, and there's nothing about the internet or mp3s that keeps a grandly ambitious musician from trying to talk to the whole universe, but there you have it, that's kinda where things are these days.

There's nothing except the serious reduction in expected income, places to play, and attention of audiences, which have a significant impact. The musicians I know that are contending with this don't necessarily expect to or desire to talk to the whole universe or have huge audiences. Making a lower-middle class income playing the music they want to make, which requires significant composing and rehearsal time, and having sales in the thousands would be a-ok.

I think the long-tail view of this is probably that the current situation is the result of the shift to 90% of the population listening to records as their baseline mode of engagement with music (I know this may not be true of two or three of you on this thread)

I suspect opportunities to make rent may have dwindled greatly as a result of there being less and less need ('need') for there to be local bands who were good enough

Which I think is the other other side of the grand ambition/mass audience vs hobbyism/day job argument. Probably.

you know, i don't think a lack of profit motive is going to cut into ambition/artistry but into longevity. we're still going to get great records, but it seems like artists are way more likely to get frustrated with the work & expenses of recording and touring if there isn't any reasonable expectation of making a living.

xp

(I mean I kind of feel like what we're heading towards is a variation on communities of people being aware of local musical options to go see-hear: but instead of being communities of geography they're communities of interest and entirely dispersed)

(I'm pretty sure I don't feel this is a good thing, but oh well)

NB this is off-topic but my favorite thing about the lower bar of entry: every time I'm recording something at home I think about how in a few years there'll be young people who grew up with whatever I consider today's awesomely low bar of entry -- like kids who've been learning to mix in DAWs since they were 12* -- and that will be a whole different thing ... not a low bar of entry for "hobbyists" but people who kinda grew up "professional"

* hell, you can already see teenagers on YouTube who are already masterful at the technical tools of music-making -- when I was that age my version of multi-tracking was doing series of overdubs on a broken karaoke machine

xp Jordan - I think you're right. The appeal of sleeping on floors while on tour definitely decreases with age and experience.

xp nabisco: but can they play instruments and sing and actually compose? What you're arguing is limited to particular types of music.

"(I mean I kind of feel like what we're heading towards is a variation on communities of people being aware of local musical options to go see-hear: but instead of being communities of geography they're communities of interest and entirely dispersed)"

I think this would be especially great for Finnish rappers who now can hope for some kind of audience if they want to have a trip abroad or something. Or maybe meet a hip hop hero, like when James Hetfield gave that Iraqi metal band his guitar.

frankly, if you have to be sleeping on a floor, *should* you even be touring? I mean the breaking even point exists for some bands - and clearly doesn't for the majority of them. we can all agree that not *every* band in the world should be touring the country, right?

"but it seems like artists are way more likely to get frustrated with the work & expenses of recording and touring if there isn't any reasonable expectation of making a living"

Yeah, but I'm not sure this is the worst thing in the world. I mean seriously for every Bob Dylan/Neil Young there's like six Bruce Hornsbys.

john I feel like you've been pushing 'get rich = motivation' more than anyone in this thread!

― iatee, Friday, May 29, 2009 5:12 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

having health insurance is the new millions of dollars

― Ømår Littel (Jordan), Friday, May 29, 2009 5:12 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

iatee I think you conflate getting rich with turning a profit

(btw, I realize that my perspective as a dude who performs classical music is going to skew heavily away from the DIY-aesthetic, even if that's kind of how I went about it, just because there are so few ppl doing the things I do who have similar backgrounds; in the opera chorus, I am literally the ONLY person who does not have a master's degree in music)

I think this would be especially great for Finnish rappers who now can hope for some kind of audience if they want to have a trip abroad or something.

You're assuming they're going to be able to afford to go abroad! Who's paying for that?

frankly, if you have to be sleeping on a floor, *should* you even be touring?

oh man

Yeah, but I'm not sure this is the worst thing in the world. I mean seriously for every Bob Dylan/Neil Young there's like six Bruce Hornsbys.

haha again I cannot argue with this, but I would point out that there are evidently enough ppl out there who like Bruce Hornsby to justify his career, ergo there's no fair reason why he shouldn't have it

frankly, if you have to be sleeping on a floor, *should* you even be touring? I mean the breaking even point exists for some bands - and clearly doesn't for the majority of them. we can all agree that not *every* band in the world should be touring the country, right?

the thing here - again using the Beatles - is that touring makes you better. guaranteed. bands come home from tour better than they were before; the experience is nearly universal. if you can't tour, your room for improvement is limited. once you've toured enough, you can stop and probably keep growing (again, the Beatles, though they're a unique case). but lots of bands tour for several years before they find their voice, and it's how they find their voice; and this was true before "bands," in the age of the troubadour.

frankly, if you have to be sleeping on a floor, *should* you even be touring?

gotta start somewhere.

yeah I think I misinterpreted you - tho you did use the only billionaire rock band as an example...

xpost

"we can all agree that not *every* band in the world should be touring the country, right?"

I'm kinda pulling for Kemmuru to actually come meet Flava Flav.

"You're assuming they're going to be able to afford to go abroad! Who's paying for that?"

How do Finns normally go abroad? Maybe there's some year-abroad programs they can exploit?

"haha again I cannot argue with this, but I would point out that there are evidently enough ppl out there who like Bruce Hornsby to justify his career, ergo there's no fair reason why he shouldn't have it"

He can have it. He just has to figure out a better way to make money off it.

the thing here - again using the Beatles - is that touring makes you better. guaranteed. bands come home from tour better than they were before; the experience is nearly universal. if you can't tour, your room for improvement is limited. once you've toured enough, you can stop and probably keep growing (again, the Beatles, though they're a unique case). but lots of bands tour for several years before they find their voice, and it's how they find their voice; and this was true before "bands," in the age of the troubadour.

this may very well be true, but by this logic *every* band in the world should tour.

In Bruce Hornsby's case I will guess this involves licensing that damn baseball song a couple hundred more times.

my point, again, is that, in a given field, once the profit motive is gone, there is less likely to be good work, and what there is will be harder to find, because the #1 motivator for human excellence is the desire to get paid. I know that sounds cynical to some people; I'm one of them, often! but it seems to be true. you don't have hobbyist manufacturers of turntables, even though I'm sure there's much pleasure to be had in constructing a working turntable.

"How do Finns normally go abroad? Maybe there's some year-abroad programs they can exploit?"

Given how many young Europeans I meet abroad say things to me like "oh you're only vacation for a couple of weeks? how sad." I am guessing there is something they can explout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERASMUS_programme

we can all agree that not *every* band in the world should be touring the country, right?

Sure, I agree with that. Ideally the mediocre crappy bands should throw in the towel or at least have as few people endure their music as possible. However, in the age of myspace and such, it is a lot easier to book tours, so you have more bands touring or attempting to tour.

J0hn I just plain don't think that's true and the history of music is pretty much not the history of let's get rich. Really the let's get rich part of music history is a tiny blip.

rich has nothing to do with getting paid. that is the constant (intentional?) confusion in this discussion. most of the great composers worked on commission.

where's Shakey Mo to tell us all about how musicians were slaves in Ancient Rome?

can you point me at industries where people routinely produce masterpieces without hope of some small profit?

on ilx thought I gotta remember, making any money at all or mentioning money = wealth

making babies

I get mad paid for every baby I make

xxxp I don't think that ability to make a SMALL profit is being removed from music.

but can they play instruments and sing and actually compose? What you're arguing is limited to particular types of music

Wasn't really "arguing" anything, just pointing out that the tools of recording might be way more familiar to way more people. I don't assume they'll be able to play/sing/write any better or worse than kids before them, but those who do may have a better knowledge of how to turn their playing/singing/writing into recorded music without anyone's help.

baby make on commission

And yes I think there are plenty of musicians/writers/filmmakers who have made masterpieces with no expectation of even breaking even.

Downloading has led to J0hn D having to resort to being a sperm donor in order to make ends meet!

xp nabisco: I'm just saying that technology and recording are only part of what makes a great record.

can you point me at industries where people routinely produce masterpieces without hope of some small profit?

the music business in 2009!

J0hn before: "I think the possibility of the sweet life, not having to work, etc, is a good carrot-on-a-stick for artists"
J0hn now: "can you point me at industries where people routinely produce masterpieces without hope of some small profit?"

You're the one moving the goalposts!

how is proffit formed?

This picture on Yahoo!'s homepage is so darn cute.
http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sch/cn/vid/img/hedgehog1_pulse.jpg

xpost - yes, sure, but unless you think knowing how to use a compressor is making people worse at playing/writing/singing,* I don't know that that's relevant

* hell, maybe it is, we'll see

xxxp I don't think that ability to make a SMALL profit is being removed from music.

it more or less is, is the thing - it's very difficult to turn anything like a profit on making an album. lots of the cheerleader talk about being able to do everything yourself on a laptop at home for free has turned out to be nonsense: qualified engineers & good rooms & talented collaborators are always going to cost more than pirated software & self-education & recording in rooms that haven't been constructed with a specific view to having music recorded in them (which isn't to say there won't be the occasional genius who takes advantage of all the tools being freely available). 8 days in a studio & an engineer & food & travel = money, and while there are plenty of acts that manage to buck this barrier (and you could argue, from a Darwinian standpoint, that what this'll do is weed out the less driven, but the evidence is against you - there's a surfeit of music, so much of it completely unmemorable that one hardly knows where to begin), the presence of ambition (which I'd describe as a very positive quality, artistically) seems on the wane.

I say this as a guy with no complaints, because I believe there are many things one can do to make a good living in music - cultivate a real relationship with one's listeners; be transparent; don't be a primadonna who thinks it's asking a lot of an artist to write ten or fifteen songs a year. be good & interesting live. all that stuff. but as to evidence that the new age will provide us with greater artists making greater works: I don't see it in any genre. I see more stuff, interesting niche work, but very little that I expect to be listening to even next year.

I have to go make dinner this was an interesting discussion!

going back to alex's post from like an hour ago, even though the profit motive is WAY down from say, 10-20 years ago, is anyone really gonna argue that music itself is worse?

and if not, how can you argue that the two are correlated?

can you point me at industries where people routinely produce masterpieces

Potential pedant alert, but are they really masterpieces if you are routinely producing them?

you don't have hobbyist manufacturers of turntables, even though I'm sure there's much pleasure to be had in constructing a working turntable.

http://www.altmann.haan.de/turntable/

where's Shakey Mo to tell us all about how musicians were slaves in Ancient Rome?

lolz sorry I've been sitting this thread out